... someone on the outside.

I think you need a touch of annoyance in them.

You, but, but also at the same time, it's like I just remember being in that scene as a kid and how great the community was, even if it kinda had teeth, of people who were just about music.

And like, it was so pure.

It was like kids who would wait out the side of the, of the corner or wait out the side of the Hi-Fi Bar and, or at the back of the Hi-Fi Bar and w- to meet Muse when they were playing there or to meet The Strokes, you know? And-

So much passion.

Yeah.

And you would be there, and you would sell the merch for the bands when you were there.

Yeah.

And in Australia, like, Daniel Johns, you know, to my generation, is a god.

You know, he was the rock star, and just amazing.

A- and if you've ever...

Listen to the album Diorama.

It's, it's one of the greatest rock albums ever made, I think.

And, uh, I remember just sitting in the studio one time, I'd just been recording vocals, and I was just ha- drinking tea or something, and he just walked out of the toilet, like, in front of me, and that's just no, you c- that's just no way to...

Yeah.

[laughs]

... who would judge you by what bands you listened to.

And I remember being in that scene in Melbourne and how cool it was and, 'cause Melbourne has, had a great rock and roll scene when I was hanging, when I was hanging about back in the day.

And, um, and I just remember hanging out with those kids, and then we would sell T-shirts, and we would make posters for bands when they came into town.

And then when I was a bit older, I got a record deal, and I met those kids, and they sold my T-shirts and made posters for me and stuff.

And it was always just this, like, really positive scene about, like, just digging music.

And it-

... your overall philosophy when it comes to that stuff?

Oh.

So, and, uh, it, it's, it's almost hard to understand as an, for maybe as for Americans or English that Australia is this weird hub outside that, you know, imbibes media from both sides and, uh, is often unsure of its own identity.

Um, so when w- I make a fantasy story, you know, people set their fantasy stories in Middle Earth kind of scenarios.

And, and you'll find that people from the satellite kind of Western nations will set their fantasy stories in America.

Um, and also, like, just chasing that, kind of, where the music comes from and the scenes and everything you saw in film clips, watching MTV and trying to kind of get in that vibe.

And it feels like a nice place to inhabit and write in, in this, in my weird satellite idea of what the California is.

[laughs] I think we show a lot, like, just what the music means to us and how it makes us feel, whether you're, like, flying or you're, like, smashing home runs or whatever you're doing to the music.

Mm

... clearly it will not.

Yeah, I think, um, we watched a lot of hangout films i- in the, in preparation for this 'cause we wanted it to be, like, a hangout game 'cause it, it, to, to define the hangout genre, it's ve- it's, it's much more based around vibes and character than it is about plot, and, and video games are obviously a very plot-centric medium.

Um, so we were just trying to do something that was like a Dazed and Confused or a f- you know, a Ferris, a Ferris, Ferris has a, a stronger through line, but it is still kind of a hangout film.

Um, and, or, you know, there's, like, some Hudson Hawk films.

There's, like, um, there's, like, Rio Bravo.

There's a whole bunch of, like, hangout films that we watched where it, the stakes are low, but they're high for the characters.

No one's saving the world.

[laughs] It wasn't a big shit, you know?

... where we, where we ruin, is it, like, um, Whistler's Mother or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't wanna do that.

We wanna, like, en- try and enhance the, the music, if anything.

So once you have a mixtape of music, suddenly if you wanna do the best for every song, suddenly you need a mixtape of mechanics.

You need a different system.

You need a different way of showing the mental state of the protagonist to the player.

How would you describe Artful Escape?

... where we, where we ruin, is it, like, um, Whistler's Mother or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't wanna do that.

We wanna, like, en- try and enhance the, the music, if anything.

So once you have a mixtape of music, suddenly if you wanna do the best for every song, suddenly you need a mixtape of mechanics.

You need a different system.

You need a different way of showing the mental state of the protagonist to the player.

How would you describe Artful Escape?

... where we, where we ruin, is it, like, um, Whistler's Mother or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't wanna do that.

We wanna, like, en- try and enhance the, the music, if anything.

So once you have a mixtape of music, suddenly if you wanna do the best for every song, suddenly you need a mixtape of mechanics.

You need a different system.

You need a different way of showing the mental state of the protagonist to the player.

How would you describe Artful Escape?

... where we, where we ruin, is it, like, um, Whistler's Mother or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't wanna do that.

We wanna, like, en- try and enhance the, the music, if anything.

So once you have a mixtape of music, suddenly if you wanna do the best for every song, suddenly you need a mixtape of mechanics.

You need a different system.

You need a different way of showing the mental state of the protagonist to the player.

How would you describe Artful Escape?

Mm-hmm.

"Like, where's the shade? Where's the light?" Then we'd rearrange it and be like, "What i- what story does that tell? How does it affect the pacing?" 'Cause I think, uh, uh, with a game like this, and Artful Escape, our first game as well, it's, like, one of the most important things about kind of something that's very narrative music, art driven is the pacing has to be, like, immaculate, otherwise the experience doesn't work.

So we rearranged it until we found the, the perfect line of music, and then the story was kind of added on top of that.

Um, and we built the game as a horizontal slice as opposed to a vertical slice.

Like, what's that feel like?

Uh, it feels fantastic.

And I, and I always think that, that, you know, Xbox obviously it has, like, Bethesda and these, like, h- these huge, like, fists that it can punch with.

But it, it's, like, always been so kind and appreciative of indie, and supportive of indie, and, like-Being part of Game Pass has been a huge part of Beethoven & Dinosaur and the way that we have come up from just a team making demos at PAX.