former

CIA officer.

He told me that when, like the military or the intelligence services are recruiting interrogators.

They tend to disqualify the people who volunteer right away.

They want to recruit people who like don't want to do it or weren't like excited to do it because the person who's like excited to do it on day one and volunteer is more likely to like turned to this complete sadistic monster.

So that gave me an idea for a story where a guy, our protagonist, it's his first day at the CIA.

It's like orientation.

So what you thinking?

Okay.

Now we're live and we're recording John.

So yeah.

Um, as far as fishing goes, yeah, I'll, uh, I don't mind fishing at night.

Um, a lot of times what I'll do, um, because it, especially in the summer, because it gets so hot so early in the summer, it'll be like 90 degrees, 98 degrees on the water.

Excuse me.

the boys got our civilization

always got smacked by steel-toed boots the way it ought to be grunge was the thing You know, it's funny.

You can get out of it and there's not going to be any consequences, but they had enough people that stuck with it that they were able to accomplish the goal.

You commented in the past that for a human being to kill another human being is not naturally in our nature.

But it does happen a lot.

It actually happens a lot less than it used to, if the anthropologists are correct.

um but it does happen when it happens at scale like this you usually have the modern state organizing it um this book i really like it's called humankind and why i forget the name of the author um But really good book.

And in there, he talks about what he calls, he calls it the veneer theory.

That it's popular for people to think that there's like this thin veneer between civilization and complete barbarism.

But I think it's I think there's a reality in what you're asking i think there's something real there that i'm not qualified to pinpoint but i do understand exists if that makes any sense

You can get out of it and there's not going to be any consequences, but they had enough people that stuck with it that they were able to accomplish the goal.

You commented in the past that for a human being to kill another human being is not naturally in our nature.

But it does happen a lot.

It actually happens a lot less than it used to, if the anthropologists are correct.

um but it does happen when it happens at scale like this you usually have the modern state organizing it um this book i really like it's called humankind and why i forget the name of the author um But really good book.

And in there, he talks about what he calls, he calls it the veneer theory.

That it's popular for people to think that there's like this thin veneer between civilization and complete barbarism.

But I think it's I think there's a reality in what you're asking i think there's something real there that i'm not qualified to pinpoint but i do understand exists if that makes any sense

Appreciate you, man.

You know, as you're reading through some of these depictions of what went down, my mind went to thoughts about Israel's actions in Palestine.

Specifically like turning shooting people into a game.

But I also, my mind also went to thinking about the American military in Vietnam.

And in the book, Kill Anything That Moves by Nick Turse, who is full disclosure on the left, but in that book he talks about, I think it was army barracks in Vietnam where they would keep like a board in the mess hall where they all ate, a board that would list like who had how many kills and kind of turn it into a game.

And I started thinking, I'm very comfortable saying that what Israel is doing In Gaza is genocidal, but I've never said that about, I don't think I've ever said that or thought that about the United States military in Vietnam.

And if someone had said to me like years ago, Hey man, your nation did a genocide in Vietnam.

And, you know, what kind of demons do you have inside of yourself that could be awakened to cause you to, to do serious damage to people?

Appreciate you, man.

You know, as you're reading through some of these depictions of what went down, my mind went to thoughts about Israel's actions in Palestine.

Specifically like turning shooting people into a game.

But I also, my mind also went to thinking about the American military in Vietnam.

And in the book, Kill Anything That Moves by Nick Turse, who is full disclosure on the left, but in that book he talks about, I think it was army barracks in Vietnam where they would keep like a board in the mess hall where they all ate, a board that would list like who had how many kills and kind of turn it into a game.

And I started thinking, I'm very comfortable saying that what Israel is doing In Gaza is genocidal, but I've never said that about, I don't think I've ever said that or thought that about the United States military in Vietnam.

And if someone had said to me like years ago, Hey man, your nation did a genocide in Vietnam.

And, you know, what kind of demons do you have inside of yourself that could be awakened to cause you to, to do serious damage to people?

A couple thoughts.

Yes, sir.

When I was in college, I dated a woman whose father had been in the U.S. Army during Desert Storm.

And I got a chance to have drinks with him and some of his war buddies one night.

And they talked all about their experiences.

They referred to the war as Saudi because that's where they were first stationed in Saudi Arabia.

And they all had a similar experience when they got called up for the war.

hmm

A couple thoughts.

Yes, sir.

When I was in college, I dated a woman whose father had been in the U.S. Army during Desert Storm.

And I got a chance to have drinks with him and some of his war buddies one night.

And they talked all about their experiences.

They referred to the war as Saudi because that's where they were first stationed in Saudi Arabia.

And they all had a similar experience when they got called up for the war.

hmm

I kinda wanna touch on something before we dive into this, but if you have something you wanna say, like, I'm gonna let you go.

Oh, definitely.

First, I'd like to say you're one of the smartest guys I know, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Um, I had never read this book.

I'd heard about it probably also from Jordan Peterson.

I also think it got referenced in the book, uh, Humankind.

Um, so I was, like, vaguely familiar with its existence.

Right

Mm-hmm.

And he influenced the French intellectual Gilles Deleuze, who I have not read.

I've tried to read some of his stuff and it was just...

Couldn't do it.

But he wrote some stuff on cinema.

I have some friends that are really into, really into the cinema, and that's o- one of their influences.

Ber- Bergson maybe, Henri Bergson.

Mm-hmm.

know? Yeah.

It's just weird.

I used to work for a corporation and I had to use my cell phone to make calls.

And then my boss was like, yeah, so there's like...

this new program where either the company will give you a phone or they'll pay your phone bill.

And I was like, awesome.

So then I got the like email about it and I'm reading through it and I'm like, Oh, not awesome.

Yeah.

So,

You know what's weird? What's that? It's like, he's like, well, unless he's like, I want a revolution.

But if you ask the Bolsheviks, like in 1916, like, what do you guys mean by revolution? They'd be like, well, so what we're going to do is overthrow the government, murder the czar and his entire family, destroy the church, collectivize agriculture, starve millions of people to death, and like fund some of the most boring cinema the world has ever seen.

But Alinsky is like, yeah, so what we're going to do is we're going to go to the government that's in place now and try to get it to hold Senate hearings to embarrass this corporation that makes cameras.

And then I totally like... empathize with the whole part about the generals and the Pentagon and those corporations.

But in Alinsky's model, there's no distinction between the corporations.

Here's a corporation that makes cameras for people to use.

who

So,

You know what's weird? What's that? It's like, he's like, well, unless he's like, I want a revolution.

But if you ask the Bolsheviks, like in 1916, like, what do you guys mean by revolution? They'd be like, well, so what we're going to do is overthrow the government, murder the czar and his entire family, destroy the church, collectivize agriculture, starve millions of people to death, and like fund some of the most boring cinema the world has ever seen.

But Alinsky is like, yeah, so what we're going to do is we're going to go to the government that's in place now and try to get it to hold Senate hearings to embarrass this corporation that makes cameras.

And then I totally like... empathize with the whole part about the generals and the Pentagon and those corporations.

But in Alinsky's model, there's no distinction between the corporations.

Here's a corporation that makes cameras for people to use.

who

Mm.

At the extreme end, you've got the so-called av geeks, the aviation geeks, and then the other end of the spectrum, you've got very occasional casual flyers who don't really mind who they travel with.

But then there's this large section in the middle, and I suppose in a way, that group or cohort was one of the groups Air New Zealand was trying to address today when they say, uh, Nicol Ravishankar, the chief executive, was, was heaping praise on small business travelers.

You know, the New Zealanders who travel frequently-

Yeah.

And on those routes, Air New Zealand does have competition on the big trunk routes, you know, Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington.

So it's gotta have a point of difference between Jetstar, it's gotta have a value proposition that is, you know, that it's able to sell to people, say, "Well, yes, Jetstar is frequently cheaper, but here are all the other things we can do for you." And so sort of reading between the lines today, I guess, it was clear that, that Air New Zealand wants to capitalize, um, on that group, keep them loyal, keep them flying, just get them in the habit of flying-

Yeah, I have his whole collection.

I've read Crime and Punishment, but that's it.

And so Brad has a new podcast with Matt Taibbi called Get Lit, where they talk about literature.

And they've had three episodes so far.

The first one they did, I think, The Assembly, an ancient Greek play.

And now they've done Discourses by Machiavelli in two parts.

But the next one, I think next week, is they're going to do Devils.

You reinvented the wheel.

Yeah, I have his whole collection.

I've read Crime and Punishment, but that's it.

And so Brad has a new podcast with Matt Taibbi called Get Lit, where they talk about literature.

And they've had three episodes so far.

The first one they did, I think, The Assembly, an ancient Greek play.

And now they've done Discourses by Machiavelli in two parts.

But the next one, I think next week, is they're going to do Devils.

You reinvented the wheel.

I feel like your eardrop

is on fire, and I feel like I'm vibing with what you're saying.

You're speaking my language, and you're definitely hitting upon ideas that I've been thinking about recently, going back even longer, and especially since we've been doing our series on Alinsky together.

So let me toss some thoughts back to you about what you're saying and ask you some questions that I've had percolating and bring in the Laura Spirits podcast that you got me into.

And I listened to an episode they did talking about modernism and postmodernism.

And I found it to be just really, really great, really great ideas.

had me thinking about some things in a new way, also kind of confirmed some views I had, which felt good, but expanded my perspective on what postmodernism is.

Yeah.

I feel like your eardrop

is on fire, and I feel like I'm vibing with what you're saying.

You're speaking my language, and you're definitely hitting upon ideas that I've been thinking about recently, going back even longer, and especially since we've been doing our series on Alinsky together.

So let me toss some thoughts back to you about what you're saying and ask you some questions that I've had percolating and bring in the Laura Spirits podcast that you got me into.

And I listened to an episode they did talking about modernism and postmodernism.

And I found it to be just really, really great, really great ideas.

had me thinking about some things in a new way, also kind of confirmed some views I had, which felt good, but expanded my perspective on what postmodernism is.

Yeah.