But no agents are standing in front of the car when he does so or when they begin to open fire, at least from what we can see in this video, which

is...

Yeah, Elizabeth, I think that's the key, right? We don't see the entirety of the scene.

And so, again, this is helpful.

It casts more light on exactly what happened.

But we don't necessarily see if there are agents a little farther down the road who might have been, you know, in fear of imminent bodily harm, thus justifying the use of force.

I will say this, though, Elizabeth, this entire imagery we've seen raises additional questions for us about, boy, the operational planning.

If it all went down exactly as Secretary Mullen is saying, why not release the body cam video and prove it?

Let's get right into this because if you take ICE's account at face value, if a suspect rams law enforcement cars and drives toward your officers, is pulling a firearm a justified response if that's what happened?

him or this and that the standard is the same pretty much cross all law enforcement agencies that is if you are reasonable believe that you face imminent bodily harm or other space in the body harm you can use lethal force i think the bigger concern here first of all door is difficult to open the videos we have now as a word of the story being put forward by d h s is accurate right but i think the bigger concern i have is the the planning that led to the actual shooting or what appears to be a lack thereof potentially And so here we have in the middle of the day, late afternoon, school is just let out, busy New York streets.

We see these people walking around.

The agents are in plainclothes, are not clearly marked.

They approach guns drawn.

In a circumstance like that, Laura, you can expect that there's a high risk the driver's going to attempt a high-speed getaway, right? He doesn't know necessarily if it's law enforcement.

And when that happens, there are so many risks to the public at large, to the agents themselves.

So when you fire seven rounds into a moving car, that doesn't seem to be in line with the protocol as described.

Yeah

... why this level of aggression.

A- and I think it begins, Jen, with, remember, let's go back to where we are, right? We're on a busy New York sidewalk, uh, early afternoon.

There's lots of people out on the street, and the subject is in the ve- behind the wheel of a vehicle.

If you're going to make an arrest, and this, you would consider this a high-risk stop because that is the plan.

They think this individual has gang associations.

Uh, they think he might be a witness or a link, potentially, to a shooting involving a DHS official.

Mm-hmm.

It'd be

based on like a wrongful death suit, essentially, is what the claim is.

But the second lawsuit, I think, is about accountability, right? And let's be real.

The architects of this disastrous plan, this surge into Minneapolis, were Kristi Noem.

Stephen Miller, the named defendants in that particular lawsuit.

The challenge is it's very difficult under federal law to hold policymakers accountable.

You can sue for wrongful death.

Are these changes too little too late? And how will they be viewed as post-remedial measures in, say, a civil litigation?

Have they still have the kind of this shorter training period?

Yeah, Anderson.

Look, the, the training period is, is certainly a big part of the problem.

We've seen the curtailed training and this rush to get all these new officers that were funded by the big beautiful bill out on the street.

I would tell you now is especially when we're starting to see really more and more of those officers deployed.

And I know we're gonna talk about Austin, and I think that was o- it appears, if some of the reporting suggests, that was one of those new officers.

But I think, Anderson, we can't lose sight of a really important fact, which is that all of these aggressive tactics, uh, where we push these ICE agents out in the streets in this desperate effort to, to meet these quotas, is putting them out of position with regard to the tactics they've historically done.

And what do you make of the Austin in- incident?

What is your sense from your time and your experience of how widespread voter fraud is at this time?

You know, Phil, it's not that widespread, right? The number of cases that you find are exceedingly low.

I think the other problem with it, Phil, is you've got to remember, what is this costing HSI, right, in terms of the diversion of resources? As Priscilla mentioned and as Ken knows, HSI does a lot of critical work for the United States.

They are tip of the spear in terms of export control laws, preventing Iran from getting microchips that lead to these drone strikes or preventing sensitive military technologies that end up in North Korea.

Big money laundering cases like Chapo Guzman, drug cartels.

That is the responsibility of HSI.

So we're pulling agents off that to say we're going to focus on these voting cases.

Your reaction to how the secretary responded to that?

Right.

The analysis has always been that it's just much more efficient to rely on charter aircraft.

Uh, so even during the first Trump administration and throughout ICE's history, you rely on these charter aircraft and commercial flights to execute those removals.

So this kind of concept in the beginning was always, when I first heard about it, uh, months ago, it was a real head-scratcher.

Why would they want to do this? When you build your own fleet of aircraft, you can't operate them when they're broken down.

When you charter, you can just get another aircraft from the charter company.

ICE doesn't have pilots, ICE doesn't have maintenance crews, all the expenses that go with it.

Uh, this is maybe a hard question to answer, uh, but why do you think they're leaning on them? I mean, what questions would you have for this administration about why they're doing so many no-bid contracts and, and so many exemptions?

John, is a quota of 2,000 arrests per day practical from an operations standpoint?

Uh, no, Anderson.

I mean, first of all, the, the, the biggest problem with that is, as Shimon says, what it does is it forces the agency to focus on these non-criminal targets.

Generally, in immigration enforcement, the apprehension of serious criminals is a much slower, more tedious process.

You, you, you have to do a lot of investigation to try to get a good location on that individual, build a targeting package, and then, then deploy a large number of officers to go out there and take that person into custody.

The problem from the administration's perspective is while those are really high-quality arrests, you can't make a ton of those in a short period of time.

There's certainly no way you can make 2,000 in a day.

And John, in the hiring process, I mean, uh, just to get enough officers, enough agents out on the streets, have they lowered standards? Is the training as l- I mean, I remember there was talk of, of, you know, cutting the training down, uh, by number of weeks.

How, how do you see this incident in Virginia?

Well, it echoes for me, Anderson, like Jeff said.

This is not historically what ICE agents have done, right? Remember, we spent the last six years where ICE primarily was picking up people who were already in federal custody.

We had that huge surge of people at the border.

ICE had to pick all those, you know, a good number of those immigrants up from the border patrol stations.

And of course, ICE always is pulling people out of prisons and jails.

But the thing is there, all those people are already in custody.

If, if, if you don't feel there's enough training as it is, what do you think about the addition of, like, shock gloves? Of, of gloves that actually give electric jolts?

So when you're not applying that training, what happens?

Well, I mean, the things we've seen, Katie, right, where we have put these officers out of position again, it's not just the training, it's also outside of their normal experiences.

And we've had all these vehicular shootings, right? So in this context, what concerns me is it's also being paired with a real shift we're seeing in the last month, I would say, to where the administration is just so focused on ratcheting up the number of arrests that we're seeing a lot of targeting of immigrants who have no nexus to the criminal history.

It's just, you know, our justice system whatsoever.

No criminal history, no arrest history.

People who are applying for green cards are getting arrested in the interviews, all these arrests in airports.

And so it doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to seeing this technology being deployed against a mother who's just maybe putting the most mild resistance because she's being separated from her children.

But apparently that's not going much to training as we've

Why wouldn't those have been rolled out by now?

It's, it's hard for me to say, right? The administration, at least vocally, is saying that they're in favor of the body cameras.

It certainly can't be, as you point out, money, right? I mean, the agency [laughs] has never...

Tens of billions of dollars in the big beautiful bill, tens more billions in this, uh, kind of two-year appropriation money that was, uh, recently given to them, so it's not a financial issue.

And the only thing I could say is it's a prioritization issue.

Now, Amna, if you go back at the history of the agency, I mean, it's probably fair to ask why weren't ICE agents wearing these already even before the Trump administration.

I think a lot of that, though, is, goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how ICE agents were being deployed.

Does all of this lead you to have concerns about the vetting and the training of the ICE agents?

Why wouldn't those have been rolled out by now?

It's hard for me to say, right? The administration, at least vocally, is saying that they're in favor of the body cameras.

It certainly can't be, as you point out, money, right? I mean, the agency has tens of billions of dollars in the big, beautiful bill, tens more billions in this kind of two-year appropriation money that was recently given to them.

So it's not a financial issue.

The only thing I could say is it's a prioritization issue.

Now, if you go back at the history of the agency, I mean, it's probably fair to ask why weren't ICE agents wearing these already, even before the Trump administration? I think a lot of that, though, goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how ICE agents were being deployed.

Historically, the vast majority of immigration arrests ICE makes are of individuals who are already in somebody else's custody.

Does all of this lead you to have concerns about the vetting and the training of the ICE agents?

Uh, number one, would that happen? And number two, is that skepticism, in your view, warranted?

You know, John, look, it, it's real hard to sit here and suggest that there was any sort of plant or anything of that nature.

I, I think what it highlights for me though is, again, you know, what the, the critical need to, when you get out these public statements following these shootings, this is something we saw in Minneapolis, this rush to kind of describe it in a way that is justified.

But the problem is you just don't have all the facts.

And having worked in Washington and worked for a cabinet official, you know, you're, you're ...

Everyone's trying to their best to get you all the information.

You're working on a public affairs statement, but you just, it, that initial reporting you're getting is often wrong.

Uh, w-

John, do you see any other reason, rationale, that this is happening more again, uh, than this reported quota to get 2,000 arrests a day out of ICE, and, um, should that be paused and reconsidered as well, any specific number?

Oh, John, no, yeah, absolutely.

Right, quotas are a disaster in immigration enforcement.

The mo- every time the administration puts ICE under pressure, we start seeing things like this, and there's a reason for it, John, right? It drives ICE, first of all, in terms of the quality of the immigration enforcement, just by nature of the way that works, is that generally speaking, criminals, when they're at large, are much harder to find.

It's much more tedious, slower work than our individuals who are just run-of-the-mill economic migrants or individuals who are asylum seekers.

Uh, people, you know, frankly, people like Mr. Guerrero here.

And so I think, look, every time we've seen this administration put these quotas on ICE, we've s- that's when we saw things like Minneapolis happen.

Are there other training changes, policy changes you think could be beneficial right now to protect both the officers and the public?

Mm-hmm

... agency, right? That they, they end up, they report to the secretary, but they also report to Congress, and they have this large degree of independence.

They are typically who is going to be responsible for any officer-involved shooting like this.

They will have primary responsibility.

The FBI would typically also play a role.

I have confidence that OIG has the capability of doing a fair, thorough, and independent investigation.

I think, though, like all Americans, you have some concerns, especially when you read statements like that, what happens r- regardless of the conclusions that the OIG reaches.

... that approached.

How significant is that decision, uh, for immigrants seeking a safe refuge here in the United States?

You know, Wolf, in many ways, this preserves the status quo, right? This idea of keeping immigrants from coming to these ports of entry where they can make their asylum claim has been a centerpiece, really, of both the Trump administration's pro- you know, fight against the asylum flow in the first go-around, but also the Biden administration.

Now, Biden technically suspended this metering program that was the subject of the court's decision, but this kinda concept of using, whether that's Mexican authorities or US, you know, CBP authorities, of stopping people before they can get into those legal ports of entry has really been a centerpiece of this kinda fight against this mass asylum surge we saw.

Now, Wolf, I'll tell you two things.

One is, that created an unintended consequence.

It drove a lot of people to cross the border unlawfully.

So a lot of those images we saw of people flooding across the Rio Grande River or come, coming through holes in the border wall, all of that was driven in large part by this effort to keep people from those 52 ports of entry.

Uh, what's your reaction?

Are you surprised by what you learned in that reporting, that almost 50 detainees have died since President Trump began his second term? Why do you think this is happening?

No, Pamela, unfortunately I'm not.

This is a, this really was a very predictable outcome.

You have a number of factors that led to this.

The first would be this rap- as the AG said, this rapid expansion of immigration detention.

Remember, we, during the Biden administration, we had roughly 30,000 people on average in detention.

That spiked up to 70,000 in January of this year.

And you say that this administration has eliminated almost all discretion in who they detain, and that could be driving this issue even further, in your view?

How much will having ICE agents deployed help address that problem?

Well, what, what ideally would I think, you know, it ... for this to work, right? For this to actually re- you know, provide, let ICE replace those missing TSA agents, you need ICE agents to be able to do tasks that would otherwise be required by TSA agents.

Now, as Tom Homan said when he kind of explained this yesterday, that you could have ICE agents manning those security checkpoints at, you know, at the exits, right? As you leave the security or the airport, you'll s- often see a, a TSA agent or two sitting at a podium there making sure someone doesn't enter through the exit line.

Basic tasks like that ICE could do.

The problem is, though, that's about it, and m- the majority of those TSA agents are doing things like operating the, you know, the metal detectors and other screening devices when people enter, operating those X-ray devices.

Those are simply tasks that ICE agents can't do without extensive training.

And so I think that's the, from an operational perspective, it's really hard to see a lot of value with this, right? For this to work, you want ICE agents to be able to come in, do some of these basic jobs, free up a lot of those TSA agents so they can help m- screen the passengers, move things along.

To that point, John, President Trump posted that these ICE agents will, quote, "deduce security, including the immediate arrest of illegal immigrants." What do you expect we might see unfold at airports now, and can you see these ICE deployments potentially leading to more chaos?

Why is that hard to coordinate?

You know, Anderson, uh, it's not that hard to coordinate.

I think there's a lot of confusion out there about what constitutes cooperation, and cooperation with state and locals can manifest itself in many forms.

What Tom was focused on today in his press conference was access to the jails, right? This idea that ICE officers are not able to get into, uh, the Hennepin County Jail there.

But we know that there's broader cooperation.

The state, the State Department of Corrections shares will give- hand prisoners over after they complete their sentences to ICE.

We know from the chief of police that there's a lot of cooperation with ICE in terms of, you know, ter- or excuse me, gang task forces or serious criminal efforts.

The agents are in a tough spot, but you had all other people there saying, "Leave us the child." What are they supposed to do?

do?...

Yeah, John, I think the problem really with this case goes back to what were they doing there in the first place? There really is absolutely no good law enforcement reason to target an asylum seeker like this.

The only reason you would go after someone like this, who's already- and you have to understand, he's already in deportation proceedings.

At this point, there's no evidence that he, uh, failed to appear in court or that he was ordered deported and failed to leave the country.

He had a court hearing coming up.

So the only reason you would ever go get him is if you later found out there was something we missed in that initial vetting when he crossed the border, and he was paroled in the United States.

Right.

How does it compare to other law enforcement agents? Tell us what the training used to be and what it is now.

Yeah, it used to be, Justin.

So historically, it was a 13-week basic training course, and then you get out in the field and you get additional training, right, as well as in-service training as you go forward.

Here's what's going on.

The Trump administration, though, has got all this money from Congress and this big, beautiful bill, right? The Trump administration gets in as part of the president's legislative priority.

He wants to massively expand ICE.

And he wants to expand it, obviously, in the long term.

And suddenly you as an ICE agent have to have these people coming in.

Was this part of the training and guidance when you oversaw ICE?

Liz, Liz, it wasn't.

It was, it was a widely held belief and a firm legal opinion of the department that you cannot forcibly enter a residence without a judicial warrant, right? A warrant that, where you swear out an affidavit explaining the probable cause, and it's issued by a federal judge or a magistrate.

Let me give you just a quick backdrop on this.

I mean, a lot of this is about...

First of all, ICE has become very good at making apprehensions of people at their residences without those judicial warrants.

With my experience, it was incredibly rare, and I can't even think of a single case where we obtained a warrant prior to a civil, uh, enforcement action.

Did the agents do the right thing here?

everyday, you know, training and what they do.

Yeah, I mean, to be fair, though, Pamela, I will say a couple of things.

One is that although the administration says a lot of these operations are targeted, absolutely, they have gotten some bad guys off the streets.

And as Priscilla just mentioned, the press release, right, sometimes a murderer, sometimes with someone with a criminal history of sex offenses, right? Good cases that I think the public broadly supports.

But the targeting has been lowered.

Right.

So we know that 73 percent of the people in ICE detention currently have no criminal convictions.

What would that do in your view?

Is it even clear to you what U.S. forces would do in addition to having those federal agents who are already there?

I don't think, Caitlin, there's anything that the U.S. forces would do that the federal agents can't do.

But I think more importantly is what would the presidents do is only really inflame situation worse.

Candidly, Caitlin, I have real concerns with the way in which they're deploying the DHS assets.

We brought up a thousand Border Patrol agents.

These are usually in tactical units.

But these are agents who are trained to patrol and apprehend immigrants, you know, who enter the United States unlawfully at the southwest border.

the incident?

Well, I think that's exactly right, Anderson.

It's about what we don't know.

At this point, what's clear to me is we need a thorough investigation.

We need...

Remember, the standard here is look at the totality of the circumstances.

That's what we need to do in order to, to make judgments about exactly what happened.

Um, do you think the agency has been emboldened more broadly in the past year? Do you worry about the kind of reduction in training?