What have been some of the most recent interventions by authorities? What are they trying to spur on universities, say, in terms of internationalisation or direction?

They're really trying to have a very solid hand on the sorts of research that the universities provide.

And again, that's not unusual.

Tipping universities towards more commercially valuable types of research, as government people say, which again is not at all unusual in a global context.

But I think it's a bit more extreme in Indonesia.

For example, there's a very controversial free meals program, which is almost the signature policy of the current president, Prabowo.

But they've really pressed universities to... be supporters of this program by doing research really aimed at supporting it and by participating in the program.

So following on from that, I suppose the ultimate question is, to what extent do you agree with the view that top Indonesian universities will be global powerhouses in the next, say, 10 to 15 years? And what will they have to focus on to get there, do you think?