But first, John, how long has Troy Aikman been at ESPN?

Troy Aikman came over to ESPN in 2022, only about four years ago, and he came over with Joe Buck.

But these two have been together, Peter, for 25 years.

And so this dissension that we're seeing is a dissolution of a 25-year marriage.

And it's kind of something to behold.

I've heard these rumors before.

So it was much earlier this year that Joe Buck renewed his deal with ESPN and to stick around for ESPN's second Super Bowl, which is going to be in 2031 and probably even beyond that.

I mean, there's got to be some personal chemistry there, right? Yeah.

Yeah

... predict plays.

Uh, he sh- he had this infectious enthusiasm that caused, uh, you know, that, that hardcore fans didn't mind and the, and the people that weren't, weren't generally fans really gravitated to.

And over the years, it d- it just, the act kinda worn, wore thin a little bit.

Uh, it, it, it really felt to me like, y- you know, a TV series that after a couple of seasons, you know, the ratings stop, uh, stop coming in.

People...

The ratings were still up 'cause people still watched, but, uh, when this happened, this was really an opportunity for CBS to, to move on from it.

[laughs]

It was bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

You know, there, there are three things, uh, going on right now with, with the NFL that I find, you know, particularly interesting.

One is Roger Goodell wants to internationalize the game, and so, you know, they started, the first game was in Australia.

Uh, this coming Sunday, the Cowboys are gonna be down in Brazil.

And so they...

You, you, you're seeing this, this big push.

You've seen it for the past couple of years, but you're seeing such a more concentrated push that, you know, before...

[laughs]

But first, how is this being received around the NBA, and is there anything the Clippers can do to fight this?

You know, s- I have a story that I, I wrote, uh, that came out on, uh, last night in The Varsity, talked about, I was talking to different league sources, different team sources, and nobody wanted to talk about ESPN and Pablo, and nobody wanted to talk about Kawhi and sort of the, w- what seemed to be sort of him skating through, or nobody really wanted to talk about circumventing the c- salary cap.

What really got everybody was Steve Ballmer's reaction or the Clippers' reaction to the, the penalties, and this doesn't happen a lot in sports, but generally in sports, uh, you go back to, like, Deflategate.

I know that was 10 years ago, and I know it was a different league as well, but there's, like, a blueprint that these owners all follow when something like this happens, and it's Robert Kraft hated the penalties that came out of, uh, Deflategate.

He, he was fined a million dollars.

They lost a couple of draft picks.

Uh, you know, Tom Brady was suspended for several games.

Uh, what does Netflix want out of Australia? This game, I guess, and what does the NFL want out of this game in Melbourne?

Mark, all accurate, by the way, in his setup?

The idea of why franchise valuations are going so high is what that – one of the reasons is what that caller just addressed.

There are definite tax advantages that you're seeing well outside the world of sports but certainly affects the world of sports.

And what is – two things.

One is you're in New York.

You saw the way that the whole New York market reacted to the Knicks going to the finals and then ultimately winning the finals.

And so the people that can't afford, you know, seats in the in Madison Square Garden, that still felt such a civic pride about that.

And

Mark, all accurate, by the way, in his, uh, setup?

setup?The, the, the, the idea of, um, uh, why franchise valuations are, are going so high is, uh, uh, what, what that call, uh, one, one of the reasons is, is what that caller just addressed, so that there are definite tax advantages that, that you're seeing well outside the, the world of sports, but certainly, uh, uh, affects the world of sports.

And what, what is, uh, uh...

Two things.

One is, uh, you're in New York.

You s- you saw the way that, uh, the, the whole New York market, um, reacted to the Knicks, uh, going to the finals and then ultimately winning the finals.

And so the people that can't afford, you know, seats in the, in, in Madison Square Garden, that still sel- uh, felt such a civic pride, uh, uh, about that.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Like, like, Net- Netflix is this new shiny object that they don't understand anything about.

And so if, if you want the, if you want, uh, Washington, if Washington is gonna get involved, they're, they're gonna get involved and push for broadcast.

Uh, they also...

It's more than just pushing for national FOX too.

They, they, they want the local affiliate in Walla Walla, Washington to be able to give good weather alerts, good news alerts to the local community, and the only way for that affiliate to, to maintain, uh, i- its place is, is for it, it to have NFL games through its affiliation with, you know, Fox or CBS or, or, or, or whatever broadcaster as well.

And it's a bipartisan issue.

Yeah

Yeah

... about, you know, the sort, sort of the, the next stage of where the sports rights were gonna go.

And back in 2013, I did a ton of stories about, you know, Twitter and Facebook and, you know, the... all, all of these social, social platforms that wanted to increase engagement.

What better way to increase engagement than to get, you know, the NFL games or NBA games? And, you know, they tried it.

Both of them have, uh, tried it and, and went away from it.

That's not sort of the business that they're in.

But then all, all of a sudden, along came Amazon Prime and Netflix and, you know, YouTube, uh, wanted to launch it, its own, uh, advertising tier as, as, as well.

Uh-huh

you're a

Mets fan.

Look at what we're paying and we're terrible.

So it doesn't matter.

You can still get dumb money.

The Dodgers have been in the playoffs every year for a decade.

The Yankees have been in the playoffs every year.

So, are we here? Are we a soccer nation? I don't know.

Do you have any idea how that's going for them? They've had a surprising season, but is anybody watching?

I have not been able to see what viewership numbers are, to be perfectly honest.

This is one of the things to look at.

So I have no clue whether they're doing well or not.

But one of the things that I find interesting is even with an RSN, you're able to hit casual fans and potentially grow a fan base.

Right.

One of the reasons that these teams like to put their games on broadcast, like local broadcast stations, like you're watching a CSI rerun and then, oh, there's this game, I may as well keep watching it.

other than him.

Do you have any idea how that's going for them? They've had a surprising season, but is anybody watching?

I have not been able to see what viewership numbers are, to be perfectly honest.

This is one of the things to look at.

So I have no clue whether they're doing well or not.

But one of the things that I find interesting is even with an RSN, you're able to hit casual fans and potentially grow a fan base.

Right.

One of the reasons that these teams like to put their games on broadcast, like local broadcast stations, like you're watching a CSI rerun and then, oh, there's this game, I may as well keep watching it.

other than him.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, the, the, the one thing about, uh, baseball, though, is, you know, the NFL can't figure out the Pro Bowl, and the NBA has tried to figure out what to do with, with its All-Star Game.

And, uh, and, and, you know, could have caught on something here with the international, uh, stuff that it did this year.

And, uh, and, and hockey has been toying around with things.

Baseball, the, it's the OG of All-Star Games.

It, it...

Uh, Fox, uh, which carries the All-Star Game, and MLB, they, they like to tinker with it, but they, they like the whole concept about the, uh, about the All-Star Game.

Right.

Wow.

Uh, and so that was a big part of these layoffs.

But if you go back, you know, you, you mentioned Carl Ravitch.

He's a baseball guy, and these are also cuts that went Disney-wide.

You saw it in Pixar, you saw it in National Geographic, you saw it in ABC News as well.

So i- it's more than just N- NFL Network coming over.

It's what we've been reporting on for the past several years.

Wow

Let's stick with them"? What are the factors that'll go into that?

Uh, I think it's ultimately who, who's gonna pay a penny more.

Uh, uh, I, uh, I do think, like, you know, if it's Fox that's paying a penny less than, say, DAZN, I think FIFA will say, "We'll take, you know, we'll take the penny less and, and, and, and, and go with Fox." But I'm so glad you, you said that 'cause, like, uh, uh, like, th-there's been some reports out there talking about- You know, the, uh, the, the starting bid is, is, it's starting at a billion dollars, you know, per, per...

And, and that's not how the, the, uh, FIFA w- uh, works is.

It, it, it, this isn't a classic negotiation in the way that US leagues negotiate.

Uh, they, they, they, uh, will give, uh, all the media companies that wanna bid on this will put their bid in an envelope.

They'll, they'll give it to, uh, they'll, they'll give it to FIFA.

Where do we stand with the NFL and new television deals?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, the, the, the one thing about, uh, baseball, though, is, you know, the NFL can't figure out the Pro Bowl, and the NBA has tried to figure out what to do with, with its All-Star Game and, uh, and, and, you know, could have caught on something here with the international, uh, stuff that it did this year.

And, uh, and, and hockey has been toying around with things.

Baseball, the, it's the OG of All-Star Games.

It, it, uh, Fox, uh, which carries the All-Star Game, and MLB, they, they like to tinker with it, but they, they like the whole concept about the, uh, about the All-Star Game.

So the, the future of the All-Star Game is that it's gonna continue as you see it for, you know, at least the next three years until the, uh, until the, um, uh, the media deal, and I would expect after that.

They, they don't...

Right.

What's the future of the Major League Baseball All-Star Game?

Oh, you know, I just had Evan Drellick on my podcast, and we were talking about this.

The game last week was horrifically boring.

A couple of first-inning runs, you know, and the players aren't really competing.

Growing up, you know, I'm an Orioles fan.

I'm an AL guy.

I hated the NL.

Do you have any idea how that's going for them? They've had a surprising season, but is anybody watching?

Wow.

F- Fox is gonna put out their, um, main numbers on, um, Tuesday afternoon, and they're gonna be r- right sort of in, in the mid 40 million viewers, which is just the, the...

And ag- I, I, I was gonna say an astonishing number, but I think, I think a lot of people expected this.

It, uh, the, the, the, uh, uh, it, it's a, it's just a, a really crazily big number.

And the thing that I've been looking at too is, is, um, you know, it's coming in the summer months, and there's not a lot of competition.

And I get...

Nielsen sends me every week, "Hey, here are the top 25 sports shows that are on-

Do you have numbers on that? How many millions of people watched that?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, the, the, the one thing about, uh, baseball, though, is, you know, the NFL can't figure out the Pro Bowl, and the NBA has tried to figure out what to do with, with its All-Star Game.

And, uh, and, you know, could have caught on something here with the international, uh, stuff that it did this year, and, uh, and, and hockey has been toying around with things.

Baseball, the, it's the OG of All-Star Games.

It, it, Fox, uh, which carries the All-Star Game, and MLB, they, they like to tinker with it, but they, they like the whole concept about the, uh, about the All-Star Game.

So the, the future of the All-Star Game is that it's gonna continue as you see it for, you know, at least the next three years until the, uh, until the, um, the, the media deal, and I would expect after that.

They, they don't, baseball, and, and, and Fox more importantly, they, they don't view this All-Star Game as a problem.

Right.

It's just been such a bonding experience.

I know.

But, but also, let, uh, let me just say, I had on my podcast, I had a, the, a couple of executives from US Soccer, uh, before, and I was like, "Talk me off the ledge," 'cause if you recall, this team was losing some of the friendlies by, like, four or five goals.

It looked, they looked terrible.

They had, you know, different, um, coaches, like, leaving the, uh, the, you know, to, to go overseas, and it, it looked like this could potentially have been a disaster.

But they, they coalesced, and they, they had a, a nice run at, at, at the beginning there.

But you also said, like, n- you know, 1994, that birthed an entire league.

Yeah

Hmm

... and, uh, g- go with the, uh, you know, the, the wor- all, all of the attention that's, uh, on the World Cup.

Uh, and so th- there, there's a big question about whether we wanna do that.

And I also t- harken back to, um, you know, ESPN back, uh, you know, a decade ago, w- before cord-cutting, when they had the biggest l- uh, license fee of any of the, the TV networks.

John Skipper was running ESPN, and he bought everything because he could.

And he made some bad deals 'cause he wanted to keep competition at bay, and, and that was, that was sort of, you know, his MO out there.

Well, uh, again, we have a $4 trillion company that can afford to t- take a loss in order to get into the game so people know that they're a, that they're a serious competitor in the game, and they haven't done it yet.

[laughs]

How did the Ernie, Shaq, Barkley, Kenny Smith Inside the NBA show do on ESPN?

Uh, I th- I think it did all right.

I, I think it was more, uh...

Th- that, that's one where I would focus a lot less on, on the viewership of that show and more about...

Uh, this, this is, like, e- Monday Night Football bringing over, like, uh, uh, Joe Buck and Troy Aikman to do it, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, we have a professional booth.

For, for, uh, for ESPN, this is, this was a nod to the NBA to say, like, we're taking this... uh, not only are we taking this seriously, we're, we're investing in it, and it's gonna be a really, you know, like, professional product with, with known, uh, known people.

Um, and it's also a message that they wanted to tell to their advertisers.

Uh, tell me, you know, how it's doing from a television standpoint in the US.

Right

... with, you know, Los Angeles or New York.

And, uh, the small markets of San Antonio, small market of O- Oklahoma City are producing more viewers on NBC than the big market of, uh, of, of New York had got in, uh, uh, for, for ESPN.

Granted, it's broadcast versus cable, and NBC r- r- ramps in their, uh, th- their streaming service numbers as well.

I mean, there, there, there are a whole lot of, uh, caveats to that.

But, uh, if, if you told me that, that the Knicks playing for the finals would be out-rated by any measure by, uh, Oklahoma City and San Antonio, that would have been har- hard to consider.

The, the, the other interesting part is poor ESPN.

Yeah, it looks nice

Is that right?

Paramount's the only one so far that is having substantive talks with them, too.

A lot of noise has been made about Rupert Murdoch going and talking to Trump, which he did, according to the Wall Street Journal and according to rumors that we've heard leading up to that.

That certainly is happening.

But I also don't want to paint this as just like a MAGA type of movement.

I mean, this is a bipartisan movement that you're seeing on the left and on the right of like, hey, games are starting to cost too much.

People are starting to spend too much in order to get various streaming services.

But anyways, I'll turn that back over to John.

What's, what's the backstory there? Why did, why did YouTube get muscled out of this?

Yeah, this was a shocker, actually, because YouTube was the frontrunner to w- get a, a package of five games, uh, that it was gonna pay handsomely for.

Uh, but then, um, uh, what happened was Netflix was trying to renegotiate its, uh, its Christmas, uh, games, and, uh, the, the deal that it has to carry Christmas games ends this year.

So it only had o- one more year, and it wanted to renew it.

It loves those Christmas games.

And as they started talking about Christmas games, they talked about, the thing about Netflix is they, they, they like to, as Netflix says, eventize.

So they g- like, they like to go after big events.

Oh, yeah.

Right

... we've seen more NBA games on broadcast television this season than we, than we ever have, uh, r- I, I think ever, i- i- in the history of the NBA.

Um, uh, Major League Baseball, they're, they, their Sunday night, uh, package went from ESPN to, to NBC.

It's on broadcast television.

So there is a lot that's coming over to broadcast television, but there's also a lot that's going to streaming.

So if you wanna see everything, I mean, if you're a poor Yankees fan and you just wanna see Yankees games, you have to subscribe to I think it's, like, five or six different services.

Uh, but, but, uh, some of those services are over-the-air broadcast services as well.

I don't