Mm-hmm.

And so part of what folks like Tremper and John Walton will talk about is the writer of Genesis is using those same images, only to talk about a very different God who speaks the worlds into existence rather than it coming through chaos monsters, who calls it good, who delights in it, who doesn't require people to bring him food because he's hungry all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And then it will use figures, images that were quite familiar, the serpent being one of them.

And so I think by far the most likely reading of Genesis, given what we know about genres, is that the intent of the conversation between the serpent and the woman is not to portray something that historically took place.

Right.

It is revealing the nature of the human condition, which is that the temptation to think that I want to be God and that I cannot trust God to be looking out for my good is something that each one of us succumbs to.

So in carrying that spirit, was there anything that you took out of the conversation as it relates to the biblical perspective on Israel being God's chosen people? Is that what they meant back then? What was your kind of thoughts in that direction?

Enneagram three, right?

Exactly.

I'm an Enneagram three.

So I would say just given my wiring, I think all of us have some battles we'll fight till we die.

This is a battle I'll fight till I die.

And so hopefully I'm farther along than I once was, but Tony, I'm with you on that sense of, I don't know for sure.

It's kind of like Peter, you know, Oh Lord, everybody else may run away from you, but I'll never desert you as well.

or something like that?

Mm, mm-hmm

... uh, uh, you know, a little kind of humility and uncertainty is probably a good thing.

Um, I think the upside of my wiring is we were made in the image of God to exercise dominion.

So to want to learn and to achieve and to produce and to create and to do, we're made for that.

We're all, you know, uh, there's a part of that that's not ego-driven, that's just, uh, being an image-bearer.

And so w- we're made to be significant and not just to be another one of those.

Um, but, uh, when I get attached to the outcome, you know, so that, uh, the outcome becomes the fuel, and my worth is on the line with, uh, how many people came to the church or how many people liked that sermon or listened to that book or whatever it is, you know, that's, that's the problem.

Um, what's wrong with that? And what have you done to break that pattern in your own lives?

Not memorizing verses in the King James Version for Awana Club, but... [laughs]

[laughs] Uh, uh, yeah, so I, I, I'll say a, I, I'll say a couple words about this.

Dallas would divide spiritual disciplines up into two categories: abstinence, where you abstain from doing what you often do; and then engagement, like celebration or giving or fellowship, where you do things that you don't normally do.

And then you can also divide sin up into two categories.

As you may well know, there'll be sins of omission and sins of commission.

So sins of omission are when I do things that I shouldn't, um, gossip, lie, cheat, and those will often be helped by, um, practices of abstinence 'cause the problem is my don't muscle is too weak, so I can't help myself from gossiping.

So to strengthen my don't muscle, don't talk.

Mm.

Love that.

How about you, John? You know, for me personally, one of the most important issues and dynamics to work through was to become secure enough in myself that I can recognize and celebrate the gifts of Nancy.

And I say when we first got married, my self-awareness was very low and I had a need to see myself as this very confident, effective leader.

And Many decades later now, I would say my understanding of my gifts and limitations, such as they are, would be more around communicating, trying to learn and speak about that, much less leadership.

People have great gifts of leadership, building teams, developing people, articulating vision, intercepting entropy.

Those kind of organizational leadership gifts are just not nearly as much a part of my life as I thought that they were.

And it took me probably 15 years of doing ministry to recognize that, to come to grips with it.

If you think about spiritual formation, which is an important topic both in your work, both of you, but also in the Christian arena of the moment, what about pastors and being formed? How would you encourage us to go deeper with God, John?

are

decades later.

So, you know, part of the mystery of friendship is friendship is one of those things you just can't make happen.

You can get in shape.

You can learn a language.

You know, the ache of the heart is you can't make a friend.

And I think because I came to it later, it made me value it tremendously when it came.

Than team player.

Mm-hmm.

So there was, you know, a few staff people, the crew filming, that was it.

And, uh, uh, so that was, you know, after lots and lots of decades of church ministry.

So I parked the car, experiencing something in between grief and self-pity, and, uh, and when I get out of the car to go into the condo where we were living at the time, a, a thought came, and the thought was, "There is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today." And I, I've often found in times of real great pain, uh, what I'll need and what will be helpful is a thought will come that, uh, is not hype.

I don't have to try to force myself to believe in it.

It's just true, and it's solid, and I...

it gives me a place to stand.

Yeah

For those that are emotionally, deeply aware of that right now in this moment, what would you say? Like what? There's no three steps to heal your wounds, but what do you do when you're wounded?

I'll give you just a couple of thoughts in season of deep wounding that has been helpful for me because the last several years have been difficult and now it kind of comes and goes a little bit more.

I'll find sleep gets disrupted and I have found that Henry Nouwen has wonderful things to say about meeting Jesus in pain.

And so when I would wake up get up and then first just read a page or two of Henry Nowen and realize in this season I can meet him.

That was a very helpful thing for me.

I would look for, I do look, I will look, for a thought that helps me make it through the day.

For example, when we were doing that joy exercise a moment ago.

But the gratitude, is that as simple? Like if I were to ask you how do I cultivate joy in a life of sorrow that I can't turn off the spigot for, would you just say gratitude?

It did.

But that question of how do people change, where's God in that, was always interesting.

So I became a pastor.

I studied theology and psychology.

But I still felt frustrated at my own inability to change.

And I felt like the only two arrows in my quiver were prayer and Bible study.

And I knew I was supposed to be doing that more, but didn't know how to do it to experience more change.

How, how do you, how do you balance that? Yeah,

For the gals that don't know, will you please do a little bit of a background of them and then why they're so important, not just for women struggling with alcohol or whatever addiction, but for all of us on a sanctification journey.

You know, I think one of the great needs in our day that we're looking for is what does it actually mean to be a disciple? And that the New Testament is actually, the word Christian only occurs three times in it.

Disciple is there 269 times.

It's a book by disciples, for disciples, about disciples.

But then you have to ask the question, well, what's a way of life? that can enable me to live as a disciple of Jesus.

Cause I have to get real and concrete with it.

So it can't be legalistic.

Can you speak a little bit to the woman who is struggling right now with that surrender piece of it because she doesn't fully trust him?

[gentle serene music] At Become New, get 10 minutes of spiritual formation every weekday with John Ortberg.

Now, right in this moment, God, may the words of my mouth and the meditations of our hearts be pleasing and acceptable to you, Lord, our rock, our redeemer.

I wanna ask you today, what's your lifescape? Get to that in a moment.

Uh, what's it gonna be through this day? And, uh, what's the one thing that you need to do so that by the time you get to the end of this day, it will have been a good day? We are learning how to pray from the psalmist, and we come today to one of my favorite prayers, which is, uh, the 16th prayer.

I have to turn my phone to silent right now.

I'm, I'm training myself to be, uh, available for texts from one person in particular.

So I'm in process.