How did life growing up shape you to be that version that got you through rugby, but then didn't always serve you as a head coach? What were the key factors in shaping that?

I think mum and dad were brilliant in the way that they probably allowed myself and my brother to experience sport, coaching, unleashing, I guess, the potential of others.

Yeah, Mum was pretty driven, probably more driven than Dad, but they both played basketball, so we always had a ball in our hands.

We always experienced the group settings or team settings.

And then obviously got chucked off to boarding school at a young age, you know, like 13, I think, before I turned 14 in March.

And... because the school started in January in New Zealand.

So that independence and that ability to build my game in the gym around my studies and then obviously going to a school where there was some rich history in terms of rugby coaches and then Taranaki used to train at the school.

Can you just comment on that a little bit?

[laughs]

... you know, when I went to the packaging company.

But, um, so I was doing the university side in UKZN, um, in the varsity, uh, varsity cup, varsity shield.

Um, obviously that was my way to sort of get out of the game for a bit when I was actually, um, wasn't really sort of like, yeah, hitting, hitting the sweet spot.

Um, so I left the Lions, I think it was, and so I got that opportunity and, and then one of the sponsors of the UKZ- ZN was an entrepreneur and he had a snack company, but his other partner owned the packaging machinery company.

Um, they formed sort of like their first ever prototype, which allowed him to pack, um, pack snacks, um, you know, like in 100 mil packs.

Uh, and then he, he was basically supplying to, to the, to the black market in South Africa, which as you can understand with the population is huge.

Is there any area of the game where you think is, is a, is a big bang for buck if, if, if there's more development or time spent there in the women's game, not just with England, but across the board?

But what I'd like to ask you is what it unlocked in you and then how you were able to integrate that into the person that you became.

Can I take a step back before I get to that one? In the sense that what I think allowed me to understand endpoint.

I was 29 years of age, a quantity surveyor working for Russell Drysdale Thomas at the time.

I did half of my time in a contracting office, and then I went to a professional office and I got this call one day around 12 o'clock.

I was captain of Waikato.

I think we'd been pretty successful that time.

We were number one in the country.

You say, "It's my responsibility to create a program that connects everyone to the strategy." So far so good, "And you've got to be able to create communication in your environment that creates understanding." It was the second part that caught my eye, and I'm wondering what you've learnt about creating communication routines across the various levels of the organization and making them more impactful to deliver on the strategy that you talk about.

So you had, I mean, at that stage, if we told you then you'd be here now doing this, how far are you from where you thought you'd be?

You know, I was a quantity surveyor for 11 years.

Uh, I kept in a provincial side for a long time.

I only got six games for the All Blacks.Um, never played a test, but captained us on, on tour.

Um, probably didn't realize my full potential, uh, because I was somewhat limiting in my own mindset until somebody helped me, and, and I guess that's why I serve now, I think, is because ultimately I wanna help people realize their full potential.

So maybe what I missed out on and, and the gaps that I didn't fully understand and f- and didn't fill is now I'm- I've been searching for that to be able to help others.

And I guess, you know, I arrived in the game as a coach with some strengths as a back rower.

... wearing it on your sleeve stuff?

in that game against France, but can you give us [laughs] and myself personally a deeper under- what, what makes her tick? What, what sets her apart from others and, and what's really impressed you over the last couple of years coaching Ellie?

Um, do you know what, mate? Like you, [laughs] you...

If you take yourself, uh, you take, um, a lot of the great fullbacks for the All Blacks, um, you're, you're all in- instinctive, intuitive players, um, and that she's one of the, she's one of those players.

So I guess experience has taught me is that, uh, like sometimes I've probably got in the road of some gifted players when I was younger, uh, whereas I j- I just think she's such a free spirit and so intuitive, but she's extremely athletic.

If you look at her running gait, um, you know, she's got a massive stride.

She only needs a half a meter, eh, and she'll burn you.

Um, she's adding, adding the kicking game.

Mm.

So how, how do you turn that external pressure into a competitive advantage rather than a burden?

Um, yeah, Izzy, it's, um, we, we...

It's, it's, it's amazing.

The girls are so driven.

Um, they're empowered.

Um, they-- We stick to our values really more than anything and, and drive that pretty hard.

Um, and then we try and, try and translate our values into aspects of our rugby.

Mm.