If we sit down with you then in, in 12 months' time, John, what, what is, what in your mind has to fundamentally have changed at, at the Essendon Footy Club?

Well, you know, once again, I, I'm not sure.

I- I've only just been there for, uh, a few hours, so I'm, I'm not sure exactly [chuckles] uh, what the, uh, what's happened in the past.

And, and to be honest, it probably doesn't interest me too much.

I mean, it's, it's about what we do in the future, what we do now and into the future.

That's the most important thing.

So, um, uh, how we, how we do, how we do that will be in conjunction obviously with Spike and, and, uh, he's already started those processes.

Are there learnings that the industry needs to take out of it, uh, when, when you have the, the magnitude of people and the achievements that both you and Fagan have made, making decisions that, uh, are based on lifestyle?

So what was it specifically that got you excited enough to, to now, um, you know, put your lot in with the Bombers?

Uh, first of all, working with Spike.

Um, that was something that, um, I've known the McLean family for, for a long time.

Obviously, Jarrad was captain here for, at the Swans when I, up in Sydney for a long time.

And, um, and, and so that was really interesting, you know, that relationship we had with him.

I just really got on really well with he, and then I was able to meet Spike through that relationship.

Known Spike for a long time and, and value what he brings as a coach and, um, so that was a starting point, and, you know, the relationship with him is, was really important.

Um, what, what do you think of Essendon's list?

So what was it specifically that got you excited enough to, to now, um, you know, put your lot in with the Bombers?

Uh, first of all, working with Spike.

Um, that was something that, um, I've known the McLean family for, for a long time.

Obviously, Jared was captain here for, at the Swans when I was up in Sydney for a long time.

And, um, and, and so that was really interesting, you know, that relationship we had with him.

I just really got on really well with him.

And then I was able to meet Spike through that relationship, known Spike for a long time and, and value what he brings as a coach.

Um, what, what do you think of Essendon's list?

The Run Home with Andy and Gacy.

Yeah, it happened pretty quickly, I think, in the end.

I've obviously known Spike for a long time, known the McVeigh family for a hell of a long time, obviously through Jared, got a really good relationship with him.

We just touched base a couple of weeks ago and just talked about how he was going and things moved pretty quickly from there.

He spoke to me the next day and said, would it be something I'd consider and And then it went to Tim and Andrew and Teddy Richards.

So there was a few people involved there, but it went pretty quickly.

So I was really excited by the challenge after sort of thinking through it a bit more.

Love the way he

How would you describe it? A, a collection of thoughts and memories from your time in the game, both as a player and coach?

Yeah, Mick, I was, guess 40 years nearly, uh, in- involved in the game.

I left, uh, the farm back at, uh, Corowa there at 16 years of age, and, uh, and I thought I'd be back in a couple of years.

So I've been really lucky to be still involved in the game over a long time.

As a, as a player, I started off as a 16-year-old, played my first game in London, and, uh, in the-

Um, how, how difficult was that period?

Uh, well, I mean, I was...

Um, I mean, really, I, I knew that was my last contract, um, when I signed at, um, at the Swans.

Um, how do you, how do you take in the, the course that your club has chosen?

Yes, J- E- Gerard, it's a really interesting or dif- difficult position to be in for, for anybody, uh, and to be able to, um, weigh up all the associated, um, parties to this.

It's really difficult to weigh that up and get it all correctly, uh, all the way along.

I mean, um, first and foremost, it was the care for the people involved.

Um, and then you go, yeah, partners, families, um, and, uh, trying to get that balance right.

Um, supporters, members, um, you know, corporate partners, there's just so many layers to it and trying to get it all right has, has been, uh, as, you know, the clear focus on what we've been trying to do over the last couple of days, get it all right, and, um, understanding that everyone's gonna feel a little bit differently about it.

Everyone's gonna sit in it a little bit differently and, uh, we have to respect that as well.

What, what's that level right now for you?

... got you?

I had two knee reconstructions.

I was shot the last three years of my, my career.

I was in and out of the senior team.

I was just about done.

I was, had that much strapping on me in the last, last, uh, month of football in t- in '99.

And I really didn't deserve a game.

What makes him a good coach, uh, human being? What, what, what's h- what's his qualities?

[laughs]

Hey, John, congratulations on the book.

Um, I've read a, a little bit of it.

Um, I just wanna ask you about the Adam Goodes situation, because that's something that caught my eye.

I mean, we remember that time really well as a football community.

Um, it was a hard time, wasn't it? And you were at the club.

You said, "I wish everyone had done more.

Mm.

... got you?

I had two knee reconstructions.

I was shot the last three years of my, my career.

I was in and out of the senior team.

I was just about done.

I was...

Had that much strapping on me in the last, last, uh, month of football in t- in, not in '99, and I really didn't deserve a game.

What makes him a good coach, uh, human being? What, what, what's his, what's his qualities?

Mm.

It was such a big issue.

It was a big issue for a number of years.

And, and so we were trying to keep it as normal as possible inside the football club and trying to...

You know, when Adam comes to work, he was...

He felt really good about that.

That was his place where he could actually concentrate on his job.

He's special, isn't he?

Tell us about perspective.

Well, I guess, um, well, it's not until you sort of stand back and you, you step back and you have a look at it, and part of this process was actually reflecting on almost 40 years in the game, and you, you realize that, and certainly in my case, that a lot of the significant moments have come off the back of some significant setbacks.

Um, and you, you know, and you don't really realize that at the time.

You're going through at the time, you get sort of caught up in what's going on.

But, you know, and some really interesting parts of my life have come through that and, and I think that, you know, it's really changed my life for a better in- in some ways.

And I think it's not until I sort of look back on that and realize that, um, you know, some of the biggest changes come off some, some challenging times.

How much different is it, and how does that, uh, relate to the workplace with people's management styles?

Yeah, it's significant, Ru, as, as you'd imagine.

How much different is it? And how does that relate to the workplace with people's management styles?

Yeah, it's significant, Ru.

As you'd imagine, you would have experienced that too.

And it's just so much different.

And probably the last five or six years, it's accelerated even more.

And And the way I was brought up was different than the way I bring my kids up.

Not that I had a great upbringing, but it's just different.

Do you know where I'm going? Were there ever players that were in that category where you thought, I've just got to let these blokes do what they do?

But you managed to get him to the Swans in a 10-year deal and no one knew about it.

Yeah, his manager texted me one night and I nearly fell off the couch.

And that he was interested in coming to Sydney.

He's obviously a girlfriend back then.

Now his wife, Jacinta, was living in Sydney.

So he was interested in coming to Sydney.

He was a restricted free agent.

How difficult was that to navigate as a coach?

But you managed to get him to the Swans in a 10-year deal and no one knew about it.

Yeah, his manager texted me one night and I nearly fell off the couch.

And that he was interested in coming to Sydney.

He's obviously a girlfriend back then.

Now his wife, Jacinta, was living in Sydney.

So he was interested in coming to Sydney.

He was a restricted free agent.

How difficult was that to navigate as a coach?

All three you can't separate.

It's real- It's a concrete fence, but it's...

I, I just, I look at all three of them and, um, I mean, Duck was clearly the best player I played with.

His ability to bring players into the game, teammates into the game was extraordinary.

I mean, Bud and...

Bud was amazing.

I mean, his ability...

Tell us a bit about that.

How would you describe it? A collection of thoughts and memories from your time in the game, both as a player and coach? Yeah,

Nick, I was, I guess, 40 years nearly involved in the game.

I left the farm back at Corowa there at 16 years of age, and I thought I'd be back in a couple of years.

So I've been really lucky to be still involved in the game over a long time.

As a player, I started off as a 16-year-old, played my first game in London.

In London? In London, yes.

It was the Battle of Britain back in 1987.

When did you like it more? Did you like the 90s or do you like it now?

What was it like playing in that great North Melbourne era? yeah well it was

we were i mean i knew wayne carey uh we we played under 12s together in state footy in for new south wales uh in darwin so we both from new south wales yeah he was from waga and i was from crow in the riverina so we we both played together under 12 so we arrived around the same time and um and then we played together for a very long time we were really fortunate back then i think Dennis Pagan was coach.

I think there was seven preliminary finals, three grand finals, two premierships during that era.

We regularly had sort of 60, 70, 80,000 at the MCG on Friday nights.

It was North Melbourne pioneered Friday night football back in the 90s.

And so it was, you know, we played in front of huge crowds, had some great success and had a really tight group.

So I was really lucky to play through an exciting era at the Kangaroos.

How were you able to do so? What were the motivations? Yeah, I guess I

Wow

... and so my first year was under Rocket Eade, and he only, you know, he was only there for six months, he left, and then Roosie took over as interim coach.

I knew Roosie a little bit when I was playing, but I didn't know him that well, and so I got to know him really well when I moved to Sydney, and, uh, then spent nine years under him as an assistant coach and s- learnt so much.

He was a, he was cutting edge for his time.

I thought-

Yeah

... we were, we, um...

Off the end of 2009 really when I started, when I was announced to take over at the end of 2010, it was a transition period.

Wow.

And so my first year was under Rocket Eade, and he only, you know, he was only there for six months.

He left, and then Roosy took over as interim coach.

I knew Roosy a little bit when I was playing, but I didn't know him that well, and so I got to know him really well when I moved to Sydney.

And, uh, then spent nine years under him as an assistant coach and learnt so much.

He was a, he was cutting edge for his time.

Yeah

... we were, we, um, off the end of 2009 really when I started, when I was announced to take over at the end of 2010, it was a transition period.

W-was there always a passion to get into coaching or just something that sort of evolved over that journey?

Well, when I had my knee reconstruction, uh, my second knee reconstruction in ninety-six, we had a, a fantastic team.

We won the premiership that year, but when I did my knee, Denis Pagan, uh, who was coaching North Melbourne at the time, asked me to be on the coaching staff with him and, and that was my first foray, and I guess an example of what I've been talking about.

That gave me a, that gave me a real, uh, start up into, into coaching and, and that got me, got me sort of whet my appetite, I guess, on, on what it was about.

So once I started doing that, I, I realized that, um, I had a bit of a, bit of a passion for it and I spent three years out of the game as a player manager.

I loved that, working for IMG, the biggest sports marketing company in the world at the time, and, you know, we managed on, on a global sense people like Tiger Woods, and it was fantastic to, to travel and do all that.

But, uh, the game drew, drew me back and sometimes, you know, the losses as much as the wins.

Look, just give us a bit of a background on that.

Take us back to the moment when you had to ultimately make the call not to play Millsy in 2024.

Uh, well, well, I mean, it probably started when he did his, he did his hamstring a couple of three weeks earlier.

Um, he was just-- we were just having a kick in the SCG and just, um, un-unusual, just had a...

he just had a snap, a goal, and, and, uh, did his hamstring.

And, um, straight away, I just remember going home that afternoon thinking, um, uh, counting the days to the grand final.

I think it was eighteen.

Eighteen days to the grand final, and then I got the phone call about the scan, which the scan said it was tendon damage and, uh, a little bit of tendon damage.

So 2020 and 2021 seasons, how do you reflect on those two campaigns in that period?

How, how hard was it to find perspective?

Uh, it was at times.

I mean, I, I did my first knee, uh, at the end of 1993, the last home and away game.

And I came back and played the first practice game of '94.

So five months later I, I played after a, a regular knee reconstruction, which in hindsight wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Um, but I was pretty obsessed by it.

Then I did it again in '96, the start of '96, and, and, uh, came back and tried to play again within five months.

And you, is it gonna be there when the day comes?"

What did, did, what did a kid make of all of that?

I was... [laughs] I remember sitting on the interchange bench, and when it all broke out, all the fights, there was 12 reports, I think, during that game.

And when all the fights broke out, not long after, John Kennedy Sr., um, got the message down and said, you know, "Okay, young fella, get on the ground." And I almost crawled to the boundary line, Gerard, of the interchange gate.

I was, [laughs] I was a bit jumpy and as soon as I crossed over onto the, onto the ground, it was on.

And, uh, I think David Reece-Jones welcomed me in the best possible way.

Yeah

... afterwards and, and spending a bit of time in there, and I think Simmo's the same thing.

I think when you go into a, in an environment, normally when you're going, you lose the last game, that's where you can be.

H- how, how hard was it to find perspective?

Uh, it was at times.

I mean, I, I did my first knee, uh, at the end of 1993, the last home and away game.

And I came back and played the first practice game of '94.

So five months later, I, I played after a, a regular knee reconstruction, which in hindsight wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Um, but I was pretty obsessed by it.

Then I did it again in '96, the start of '96, and, and, uh, came back and tried to play again within five months.

And you, you just go, "Is it gonna be there when the day comes?"

How would you describe it? A, a collection of thoughts and memories from your time in the game, both as a player and coach?

Yeah, Mick, I was, I guess, 40 years nearly, uh, in- involved in the game.

I left the, the farm back at, uh, Corowa there at 16 years of age, and, uh, and I thought I'd be back in a couple of years.

So I've been really lucky to be still involved in the game over a long time.

As a, as a player, I started off as a 16-year-old, played my first game in London, and, uh, in the Battle of Britain.

Um, how, how difficult was that period?

Uh, well, I mean, I was...

Um, I mean, really, I, I knew that was my last contract, um, when I signed at, um, at the Swans.