Are you getting closer?

Well, we're closer than we were a week ago or 10 weeks ago, but we're still with big gaps, Al.

We have critical weeks ahead of us.

I think the stakes for the world are enormous.

I hope the Iranians will not get stuck in a tree of their own making on one demand or another in order to try to find a way together, and, uh, we're hopeful.

We'll do our best, but we have to close off all pathways to a nuclear weapon, and we have to have enough breakout time in order to be able to guarantee the security of, uh, everybody who's concerned about this.

Is, is that a correct reading?

Well, let me, uh, uh, let me use this program to deliver a very clear message to the Iranians, which is, uh, this is not a, a political decision for us.

So you think they're a lot weaker than they were a, a month or two ago.

There's no question in my mind that they have been stopped in their momentum.

That was target number...

Target number one.

The, the point is, Al, there's a very clear strategy which the president is implementing.

The first part of that strategy was to make sure we had a government to work with in Iraq.

Mm-hmm.

And the president made it clear he was not going to engage in strikes and in a major effort until we knew we were on that path.

Are conferences like these really making a difference?

Yes, they are.

At least this conference is making a difference.

The Our Oceans Conference began when I was Secretary of State in twenty fourteen, and we started this process.

This is now the eleventh meeting.

COVID knocked us out of one cycle But in the course of these meetings, literally $169 billion has been pledged for certain new efforts and initiatives to address some of the ocean challenges.

About 26 billion of that has already been delivered.

Again, does that concern you? If the US w- was more forthright about climate action at this time, do you think we'd be having a difference? And, and President Trump, to be specific.

From what you know about this, and what you know about having to keep allies on side, how do you think that's going, and what are the key sticking points?

Well, the sticking points are the entire agreement right now, because there are many countries in the region that wanted the president to, quote, "Finish the job." That requires some difficult definition, uh, but they're very worried that they're gonna be left with something, or Iran has freedom to do things that they haven't before.

And, and that's clearly why, uh, Secretary Rubio is there, to try to assure them that's not going to happen.

But, uh, we all know that, uh, Secretary Rubio thought that the foundation of this, uh, uh, of this, uh, war, initially, uh, he, he really didn't believe in it, and those are the reports at least that came out of the White House with good reporting.

So I, I think that right now, uh, the administration's in a very tough place.

It's not a peace agreement.

It's a, it's a ceasefire and try to find an agreement on, on the potential of the production of nuclear weapons.

I guess what I want to ask you is, did you get tempted? Were you, was your administration anywhere close to going to war to actually degrade Iran's military abilities?

From what you know about this and what you know about having to keep allies on side, how do you think that's going and what are the key sticking points?

Well, the sticking points are the entire agreement right now, because there are many countries in the region that wanted the president to, quote, "finish the job." That requires some difficult definition.

Uh, but they're very worried that they're gonna be left with something or Iran has freedom to do things that they haven't before.

And, and that's clearly why, uh, Secretary Rubio is there, to try to assure them that's not going to happen.

But, uh, we all know that, uh, Secretary Rubio thought that the foundation of this, uh, uh, this, uh, war, initially, uh, he, he really didn't believe in it, and those are the reports at least that came out of the White House with good reporting.

So I, I think that right now, uh, the administration's in a very tough place.

It's not a peace agreement.

What were you all told about, you know, the, the perils or the opportunities of war? What should have been, you know, have been told to President Trump about this? Because almost immediately the Strait of Hormuz came up and bit everybody in the you know what.

No alternal, no alternative fuels that would then reduce our reliance on what goes through the Strait of Hormuz.

Well, you're, you're, uh, that, that hits the nail on the head, absolutely.

I mean, clearly the Straits of Hormuz have now been weaponized and, and seized, claimed by Iran in a way that never existed prior to this.

We never heard the Iranians say, "If you don't do this," or, "If you push us on our nuclear front, we're gonna shut the Straits of Hormuz." It was unthought of.

Absolutely, completely unthought of.

Uh, and I think that, uh, uh, that's gonna be a very difficult issue to completely work out, I think, to satisfaction.

Other countries in the region, Lawrence, are now making provisions to try to avoid this crisis of, uh, uh, of the weaponization by one country of such a critical asset.

That's not the [laughs] kind of phrase you would use, but that's certainly the posture we all think you, you have a right to be sitting in tonight.

H- h- w- how was the pr- how did the process work back in 2015, 2016, when, when you led the original deal?

Well, back in 20- uh, back in 2015, uh, we really began from a very, very different place.

I had my first conversation with my counterpart, Foreign Minister Zarif, uh, Javad Zarif, and, and Javad was extremely articulate, very well-spoken.

He'd been to the University of Colorado for some period of time.

Been to the UN.

Uh, so he was a pro, and he knew the ups and downs and ropes.

Um, and we held our first private conversation at the UN, which we'd scheduled together.

What are the, what are the Iranians like to negotiate with?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, nobody could guarantee that, uh, they wouldn't try to cheat.

In fact, we anticipated it.

So we got 130 additional inspectors on the ground in Iran.

We measured every ounce of, of uranium that they mined and then milled and then built into the, the, uh, nuclear production sys- and then into waste.

Literally, we followed the entire track.

We destroyed tens of thousands of their centrifuges.

Yeah, yeah.