Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.I, I, br- I'd push back on the, on the systems thinking thing.

It, I only just a little bit because, and maybe this is my own bias, but I, I, I believe that through years of abuse and is it the network, and, uh, uh, most network engineers that have, that have been two, three, four years in the job, even if they don't know they're doing it, they're doing the systems thinking thing because you have to...

A- And the meantime to innocence is calculated by how quickly you prove it is the app that's broken.

And the only way to do that is to bring yourself up to the app level, right? So I don't know whether or not I would, uh, I, I would lean in too hard personally to a view that said that too many network engineers are too closeted and siloed.

But I do think organizationally that's, it's incredibly true.

I think, but, you know, I, I, as a network engineer in my previous organization, I would not have an SSH access to a machine, like a database server or a web server, because security.

[laughs]