ornithologist, an active researcher.

But the rest were not, you know, they were educated in biology and other things, but were business, like in the case of Bob Berry, a businessman, in the case of Frank Bond, a legislator, an attorney.

In the case of Jim Weaver, kind of a legend, you know, like one of the people that hawked with him was like the best falconer they've ever seen and someone who had a real gift with the birds but could kind of do any trade under the sun and was just incredibly talented, you know, and an integral part of the team.

So, yeah.

Anyway, they started at Cornell, and it grew, and it really grew in a way that became a separate organization.

Tom Cade, in his interview that I did with him, which is still out there, I think, in Israel Mattson's podcast, he played an interview recording.

Tom gives this history, but part of a little bit of the funny history there was that he really struggled a little bit to... to get the best donors from Cornell.

What do you think as a biologist?