If experience is such a great teacher, shouldn't businesses and schools and school districts just keep getting better over time? John, take it away.

Yeah, thanks for having me back, Andrew.

Yeah, I think that's exactly the question that got me thinking about this.

You know, when I think about...

My own experience as a school leader and people I've worked with over the years, once you've been, let's say, a principal for 10 or 15 years or a teacher or superintendent, you're a school leader or a teacher leader, you've probably observed hundreds or maybe even thousands of lessons.

You've dealt with all kinds of issues, discipline problems, staffing challenges, parent concerns.

You've seen curriculum come and go, state assessments change, new initiatives, budget decisions, all kinds of unexpected problems.

So what exactly do you think he's talking about when he says theory?

If experience is such a great teacher, shouldn't businesses and schools and school districts just keep getting better over time? John, take it away.

Yeah, thanks for having me back, Andrew.

Yeah, I think that's exactly the question that got me thinking about this.

You know, when I think about...

My own experience as a school leader and people I've worked with over the years, once you've been, let's say, a principal for 10 or 15 years or a teacher or superintendent, you're a school leader or a teacher leader, you've probably observed hundreds or maybe even thousands of lessons.

You've dealt with all kinds of issues, discipline problems, staffing challenges, parent concerns.

You've seen curriculum come and go, state assessments change, new initiatives, budget decisions, all kinds of unexpected problems.

So what exactly do you think he's talking about when he says theory?

If the strategic plan isn't the management system, what is it?

Well, I think one thing is some people might be familiar with the management system terminology and some people may not.

It probably has a technical meaning for a lot of people that are doing this type of work.

But whether you use that terminology management system in your organization or not, Every organization has one.

And so when a lot of people hear management system, they may picture some type of software system or some more formal operating manual, but that's not what I mean when I say there is a management system, whether you realize it or not.

I don't mean something formal necessarily.

I'm just talking about a management system as a simple collection of recurring leadership routines that determine how the organization actually functions.

But the document, of course, itself isn't really the point, is it?

If the strategic plan isn't the management system, what is it?

Well, I think one thing is some people might be familiar with the management system terminology and some people may not.

It probably has a technical meaning for a lot of people that are doing this type of work.

But whether you use that terminology management system in your organization or not, Every organization has one.

And so when a lot of people hear management system, they may picture some type of software system or some more formal operating manual, but that's not what I mean when I say there is a management system, whether you realize it or not.

I don't mean something formal necessarily.

I'm just talking about a management system as a simple collection of recurring leadership routines that determine how the organization actually functions.

But the document, of course, itself isn't really the point, is it?

the smallest.

The, the large initiatives, that's what gets attention.

But, you know, I think the larger the initiative, the problem is the longer it takes to learn whether that thing, that idea is helping or hurting or maybe, you know, having no effect at all.

And I think what happens is, and what I've seen in schools repeated, I'm sure it's probably the same, same in the private sector, is oftentimes by the time the evidence actually arrives, if it ever does, so much time, money, and goodwill has been spent, it almost doesn't matter [laughs] you know, whether the idea itself was successful.

You know, all this, uh, cost was sunk into training people, you know, all these new expectations have been established.

And then, you know, we, we almost become more invested in proving the initiative was the right decision.

And then once, once that happens, you know, it's almost impossible to go about learning if it's actually having the in- uh, you know, the effect that, that we intend it to.

Shall we wrap this up? Where, how, what do you wanna leave people with?

the smallest.

The, the large initiatives, that's what gets attention.

But, you know, I think the larger the initiative, the problem is the longer it takes to learn whether that thing, that idea is helping or hurting or maybe, you know, having no effect at all.

And I think what happens is, and what I've seen in schools repeated, I'm sure it's probably the same, same in the private sector, is oftentimes by the time the evidence actually arrives, if it ever does, so much time, money, and goodwill has been spent, it almost doesn't matter [laughs] you know, whether the idea itself was successful.

You know, all this, uh, cost was sunk into training people.

You know, all these new expectations have been established.

And then, you know, we, we almost become more invested in proving the initiative was the right decision.

Well, let's, shall we wrap this up? Where, how, what do you wanna leave people with?

You know, everybody wants action.

Yep, everybody wants action.

It's, it's, you know, the issue is certainly not a lack of effort, you know.

I mean, I see it every day, you know.

Leaders, educators, they work hard.

The vast majority is, you know, work very, very hard, which is probably the case in most businesses.

And, you know, in most cases, people are already doing their best, and that's, that's kind of the point, right? The issue is that the results of those outputs of those systems, you know, they're produced by the system, and they can't be improved directly.

Mm.

Yeah, the concept of tampering is such an interesting one, you know, that he talks about, about tampering with a system, you know, just does more damage.

More damage.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

That's kind of the irony or the paradox that you often find in the Deming philosophy is that until people actually stop and think about it, you know, if they stop long enough to consider what he was saying, then they start to sort of come around to those ideas.

But we often don't slow down enough to actually do that.

Right.

And so, you know, it begs the questions if, if, if reacting to results is ineffective and we've, we've said that, you know, here before, what is it leaders should do instead? And I, you know, I think a really useful different starting point is, is a question to ask yourself.

So yeah, there's lots of different factors.