I do

too.

Yeah.

Because it tells you nothing about an individual person.

I'm all focused on individual people for mass customization through.

So yes, there are differences, but there are always shifts of bell curves.

It's never like you read all these articles about this wholesale chain.

and

Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, absolutely.

I love Chip.

Chip, you know, I've known him for 25 years now.

And we gave him our third ever experience stage of the year award winner for his Joie de vivre hospitality, which is like one of the greatest themers of experiences in the world and continue to follow what he is and to meet and talk with him on occasion.

And the Modern Elder Academy is a perfect example.

One of the things I love is that he calls it a chrysalis.

Oh, there's three things I was thinking about.

Have you found that to any degree in your research?

I mean, yes.

If, I mean, basically if you, if you, if you have, if you've hired a transformation guider, right.

Someone to help you and, and there's lack of trust there, then it just, it just won't work.

Right.

Trust is paramount to be able to do that.

I mean, there's, there's level of authenticity and, confidence and other things, but trust is key.

And just explain that and then tell me about what's next.

As you were writing the book, the latest one, what did you understood deeper about the people are seeking transformation now?

now?Oh, so much more, so much more.

Um, one example is, um, originally I sort of, I sort of, you know, the key with transformations is you're guiding customers to achieve their aspirations, right? They have an aspiration to, uh, become, uh, someone different in some way.

And, um, um, um, and, and, and I always used to think it was sort of like the bluebird of happiness came down and lit on your shoulder and whispered in your ear, "Oh, you've got an aspiration." And I never thought about where they came from.

And so one of the frameworks in the new book, the chapter three is on understanding aspirants and aspirations, and, um, and so I, I, I wanted to develop a framework of where it came from.

One of the things my research showed is that a lot of aspirations actually come out of trauma.

The, the, the trauma, um, uh, immediately changes you, right? You are tran- it's a metamorphosis.

For someone reading your book, what are the key things you want them to take away?

Hilton, for the stay.

Starbucks is in trouble again.

I'm Joe Pine, co-author of The Experience Economy, and I have long used it as the exemplar for the shift from goods and services into experiences.

Starbucks turns a cup of coffee worth two or three cents of beans into a coffee drinking experience worth four, five, six dollars per cup.

The fundamental problem? As my co-author Louis-Etienne Dubois and I discussed in our recent HBR article, Starbucks is commoditizing itself.

So what is self-commoditizing? It's when a company shifts its mindset from the real value it's creating for customers to focus on efficiency and volume.

In Starbucks' case, it's causing the company to lose its authenticity and lessen the third-place experience for which it's known.