But when you sort of reflect at your career, where you've got to from now onwards, and you look back, I mean, is there any of those moments where you go, you know what, I was bloody tough, but actually in hindsight, I learned so much from that chapter?

Yeah, I think, you know, again, it's a very privileged position for me to sit in today because I also appreciate that there are a lot of marketers, particularly of any industry, that are sitting out there, you know, looking for a job or needing a job.

And my career, you know, I've been made redundant a couple of times.

I've made poor job choices along along the way that probably didn't better my career um but never really pushed me off the path which I think is is a privileged position to be in as well um but you know I think there are professional challenges that make you better at your job and then there are life experiences that make you better at your job and I think that you know I've worked through you know restructures and acquisitions and through COVID you know I was running at the time a hospitality gift card program during COVID that just obviously just went to nothing in the space of 24 hours you know worked hard under pressure and built resilience and done all of that stuff but you know certainly when I cared for my partner through a terminal injury illness.

He, at the end, passed away.

For me, that was an incredibly, obviously, challenging and difficult time for me, but it changed my leadership because it gives you perspective.

It makes you realize that work is so important without being the most important thing.

um the institute of marketing in australia