Um, so it's the pornography platforms that are controlling what viewers are seeing, um, and push- and, and shaping the sexual and emotional values of the users.

Um, yeah.

I mean, uh, uh, to begin with, I, I, I was, um, I was very skeptical about the idea of addiction, just because I didn't want it to be used as an excuse for men's behavior.

Um, a bit like with some of the ideas around, um, around the way that pseudo child pornography, um, normalizes, uh, you know, real images of, uh, child abuse.

And I was like, "You know, that's sort of slippery slope.

They can't help it." I, I, I really was resistant to that.

But it, it's not about that.

Mm.

I couldn't believe he'd said it.

I think she was pretty horrified that, uh, trans ideology had effectively blinded, you know, the chief of police in, uh, in Surrey to what was obviously quite concerning.

Now, he's gone on to now lead the National Chief Police Council, which is concerning in itself.

I don't th- I know.

I think it would be unfair to suggest that he in any way knew about what had happened, but I think it would be fair to say that perhaps his judgment was clouded by the need to seem inclusive.

And I think that was something she was trying to point out, that, you know, perhaps he wasn't sort of seeing things as clearly as he might because he was concerned about being called a bigot.

And I think the fact that she was, um, castigated for raising, you know, quite sort of reasonable concerns about men in women's spaces, um, and told to apologize to, you know, an unelected, self-appointed public figure, was in itself really concerning.

Journalist Jo Bartosch was one of the first to see what was happening, and she's kept on it ever since.

Where are you in Great Britain with, with pornography? What, what is it like there for this, uh, industry, I guess we'll call it?

We seem to be taking sort of two steps forward, one step back all the time.

So there've been some really useful legislative changes recently.

So we've had the introduction of age verification, which happened since the publication of the book, and that's been really, really good, um, in terms of, you know, stopping children just stumbling across pornography, particularly on social media.

Um, we're having some problems trying to get, um, the pornographers to actually comply.

So I know at the moment there are sort of fines that Ofcom, um, our regulatory body, uh, are processing and just trying to, trying to make the largely American tech giants [chuckles] sit up and take notice.

We've, uh, recently had bans on pseudo-incest pornography and pseudo-child pornography, um, which, uh, again, is great if they make them stick, and we've had a ban on strangulation.

Is that, is that a good description?

But it's been around forever.

It has.

But what we have seen is a revolution in terms of what pornography now is.

Not only has it increased in extremity, but as with every other industry, it is competing basically to keep your eyeballs on screen, to keep the data coming in from your clicks, from where you're looking.

It's part of the attention economy.

It's part of what's known as the fourth industrial revolution.

So that's the monetization of essentially what it is to be human.

But is there proof of the charges you're making here about its impact on us?