I would think they're kinda the same.

Yeah.

I think toxic masculinity is oxymoronic.

So if you look up the definition of masculinity in Oxford Dictionary, it's the qualities and characteristics that make up a man.

And so based on that definition, which is a secular definition, we don't have toxicity.

Toxicity comes from males, males who refuse to raise their families.

They defer the leadership to another man, or they defer the leadership to social media.

Yeah.

But what if we were working on it all the time? And what if we were guarding it all the time? And what if we were holding it up as like one of the most important things in our life all the time on a daily basis? And how much could that change what it looks like 10 years from now?

Yeah, speaking of 10 years from now, 10 years ago, actually more like 15 now, my wife was saying, hey man, we got a problem in our marriage.

I'm struggling, we have a problem.

And I was like, ah, whatever, blow it off, blow it off, blow it off.

Finally, she said, no, we really, I'm never gonna leave you, I'm never gonna divorce you, but we need help.

So we went to a counselor and they did, this gal, she wanted to go to a woman, so my wife felt safer.

She did a survey, one to 100.

Hmm.

Can you explain that one further, unpack it?

Yeah, so that's the most important one.

And that's why I put it first.

So in 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, Paul lists these 20 qualifications of an elder.

He lists this Greek word antipolepnos first in both those instances.

Now in the ancient, in the Greco-Roman world, especially with the Hebrews, the Jewish people, they would order things by value, by importance.

So we see the 12 apostles, the 12 disciples.

But what would you say about this one?

Share with me just a bit about the concept of guardrails and how it is that you and Shanna really came up with the idea of doing this book.

Yeah, we were married 34 years ago, and we both were from non-Christian backgrounds and had non-Christian lifestyles.

And when we got married, she married into full-time ministry.

And we knew early on, we both are two low-maintenance people in a high-maintenance marriage.

And so we knew early on that we really needed to put some boundaries in effect to protect each other from doing... forgive the word stupid things.

And so we want it because we feel like most people are pretty normal.

They just do stupid things that hurt them.

When you talk about the importance of guardrails, give me some examples, if you would, of what you've instituted.

Share with me just a bit about the concept of guardrails and how it is that you and Shanna really came up with the idea of doing this book.

Yeah, we were married 34 years ago, and we both were from non-Christian backgrounds and had non-Christian lifestyles.

And when we got married, she married into full-time ministry.

And we knew early on, we both are two low-maintenance people in a high-maintenance marriage.

And so we knew early on that we really needed to put some boundaries in effect to protect each other from doing... forgive the word stupid things.

And so we want it because we feel like most people are pretty normal.

They just do stupid things that hurt them.

When you talk about the importance of guardrails, give me some examples, if you would, of what you've instituted.

Let's unpack that one a little bit, because I think it's so important because over time, this can be the thing that really begins to separate people.

So this chapter was the easiest and the hardest chapter to write.

And then the one before that, Guardrails 3, is the one part of the book that gave back to me.

So Guardrails 3 is every time you write a book, the book gives back to you.

So Guardrail 3 gave back to me.

Guardrail 4 was my easiest and most difficult because for 25 years, the first 20 years of our marriage probably, I cheated on my wife.

So when you look at this book, you're like, wait, what? Wait, I'm confused.

Talk about the importance of guardrail six here, only counseling men.