I mean, you've also got a hell of a lot of chutzpah to

you, Jim.

Well, I think that's probably a true statement, a lot of chutzpah.

That's actually an interesting story, Gorbachev, because he and I did come together in a very powerful way right at the end of his presidency in December of 1991.

I was in fact the last foreigner that he received in his Kremlin office.

And the reason for that, which is an example of the kinds of things that I've done, but it was also what really catalyzed a 10-year, 15-year relationship with him through the State of the World Forum.

I'd been working in Soviet-American relations for some time, beginning in... 1985, actually, when I joined the Esalen Institute Soviet American Exchange Program.

So what's your sense of that, Jim? I