We can anchor it in a kind of different conception and more expansive conception of freedom, of capability, of moving beyond the kind of exploitation, expropriation sort of dynamic that people like Nancy Fraser and others sort of point to as the kind of core political order of capitalism.

I think the ownership question is quite complicated because it often blurs.

So HS2 is a public sector project funded by taxpayers, and yet it uses mostly private sector contractors.

Um, and then you get the water industry, which is paid for by consumers through their bills, but it doesn't really matter whether it's bills or taxes.

Either way, consumers are paying for it, and yet it has a layer of private investors sitting above it who were meant to bring private sector discipline to the field and innovation and have clearly failed to do that.

And no one else has actually followed the model that Britain has, where they literally sold off, you know, for a song, all the boreholes and water mains and, you know, sewage treatment plants and land surrounding it.

But other countries have used contracts.

[laughs]

Can you explain what they do there and how this whole process works?

Sure.

So, so all that rubbish that goes into black bags, which is Londoner's non-recyclable waste, gets taken down to the river in sort of trucks and then unloaded onto barges, which then take the black bags of rubbish along to the Cory Energy site.

[machine banging] It then gets transported via truck [horn honking] [machine thudding] and dumped into the waste bunker.

[machine whirring] A giant crane grabs the waste, which looks like a giant claw machine, and drops it into a furnace, and the plant's heat separates the metals and the ash.

[machine humming] And the metals get taken by boat up to a port where they're converted into asphalt to be used in roads.

And then back at the energy from waste plant, the energy that's created gets fed into the grid.

What do people who aren't on board say about it?