So were you doing SEO before you started an agency? How did you get into it? What sort of created this idea that is now method and metric?

Yeah, so I joined the workforce not long after the 2008 financial crisis.

And, you know, hiring for jobs in the marketing fields and advertising wasn't super easy.

popular at the time.

A lot of brands were really reluctant to bring on junior folk.

And I found it really challenging finding my footing in this new career path.

I was very much drawn to the advertising world because Mad Men was at its height.

And did you ever go back to the office?