How did his ideas also actually become policy? What happens in between there?

Well, I think there's a couple of moments that are really important.

I mean, you got all the nitty gritty of making sub targets and we need to find money to do this.

But like the two revolutionary moments were first of all, the COVID crisis, because it led to the recovery and resilience fund, 750 billion, which need to, divide over the whole of Europe but there were a lot of targets in there one of them being that more money should go to the green transition so it was originally presented as like okay economic crisis because of COVID but the European Commission really used that to push its agenda including the green deal including hydrogen so that meant a lot more money like in a lot of the national plans you saw hydrogen ideas popping up.

So that was an important one.

The next one was the war in Ukraine, where we realized that we couldn't count on cheap Russian gas mainly.

So that was used by the commission by Timmermans.

And they could also really help each other advance the same message.