[laughs]

What? Oh, especially railroad people, let me tell you.

If you're brought up in the rail side and you're there for 30 years, that's just how it's done.

You're not allowed to tell me otherwise, right? So it is a very difficult job to change hearts and minds, and that's one of the reasons that the three of us have come together on this podcast is because the three of us work together to actually do exactly that, change hearts and minds at a rail and transit agency to drive cultural change to accept full life cycle scheduling and project management principles.

So we know the struggle.

We know what it's like.

Two of the best tools that I had in my toolbox to be able to shift that mindset is, number one, folks who are data-driven, really it was case studies, right? So be it with CMAA, be it with the DBIA, be it with PMI, all of these professional organizations who carry data on these, it, it really is uniformly seen that no matter where you look and what organization is talking about it, if you are doing advanced project planning, if you are doing full life cycle project scheduling from the start, from the inception of a job, from the scoping of the job all the way through construction completion, you're going to have better project outcomes.

[laughs]