Is the bigger challenge here, is it just there isn't enough time in the day to get to all these things? Is it just the turnover and personnel? Is it a training issue? What do you see some of the biggest challenges in really solving some of the more simpler elements that could prevent or at least make the hackers work a little harder, I guess?

I think one of the biggest challenges is that many people think their systems are air gapped.

The amount of times that I've heard from a small municipality or a large organization is like, I'm air-gapped, I'm fine.

Let me show you what I can do.

And if they want to pull up their phone, I'm like, no, no, don't you understand that even because you have the access on your phone that you are not air-gapped any longer.

And so that OT-IT convergence is really impacting the way things are moving.

I also think another big challenge is... on the education side, understanding that IT technology does not solve OT problems and cannot protect you from a cybersecurity perspective.

Any other big trends that you're seeing that we should be aware of?

Is the bigger challenge here, is it just there isn't enough time in the day to get to all these things? Is it just the turnover and personnel? Is it a training issue? What do you see some of the biggest challenges in really solving some of the more simpler elements that could prevent or at least make the hackers work a little harder, I guess?

I think one of the biggest challenges is that many people think their systems are air gapped.

The amount of times that I've heard from a small municipality or a large organization is like, I'm air-gapped, I'm fine.

Let me show you what I can do.

And if they want to pull up their phone, I'm like, no, no, don't you understand that even because you have the access on your phone that you are not air-gapped any longer.

And so that OT-IT convergence is really impacting the way things are moving.

I also think another big challenge is... on the education side, understanding that IT technology does not solve OT problems and cannot protect you from a cybersecurity perspective.

Any other big trends that you're seeing that we should be aware of?

Hmm.

So if we think about operational technology systems, we have a space segment, we have a launch segment, and we have a ground segment, and you've got the payload in the bus, and you've got, you know, servos and gyros and all sorts of things that move the spacecraft.

Well, if the controller gets modified through software, then you could send the spacecraft into an orbit that was not planned.

From a launch segment, you have the rocket itself and the ground support and the ground systems and all of the things that control that functionality of what you're doing in space, whether it's taking images, whether it's listening to things, whether it's providing communications.

And if you are able to impact the ground segment by changing some of the hardware, programmable logic controllers and other things, you might be able to impact the space segment.

What, uh, what- how would you describe the maturity of that ecosystem right now in terms of recognizing the risk that's there or, or maybe trying to proactively get in front of it?

I actually think it is something that is lacking in the space community.

I think they believe that if they're cyber secure from an IT perspective, that they're, they'll be fine.

Hmm.

So if we think about operational technology systems, we have a space segment, we have a launch segment, and we have a ground segment.

And you've got the payload and the bus, and you've got, you know, servos and gyros and all sorts of things that move the spacecraft.

Well, if the controller gets modified through software, then you could send the spacecraft into an orbit that was not planned.

From a launch segment, you have the rocket itself and the ground support and the ground systems and all of the things that control that functionality of what you're doing in space, whether it's taking images, whether it's listening to things, whether it's providing communications.

And if you are able to impact the ground segment by changing some of the hardware, programmable logic controllers, and other things, you might be able to impact the space segment.

What, uh, what- how would you describe the maturity of that ecosystem right now in terms of recognizing the risk that's there or, or maybe trying to proactively get in front of it?

I actually think it is something that is lacking in the space community.

Since you've kind of had your, uh, foot on both sides, are there misconceptions that are worth addressing both about the public sector and the private sector?

Yes.

I, I'll give you one big one for each one.

The first one is when you're in government, there's also always this misperception that you can't talk to the private sector.

"Oh, we can't talk to them, you know, they're just gonna sell us something, and we don't wanna to interfere with an acquisition or procurement because we wanna be fair to everyone." When in reality, it's encouraged that you talk to the private sector.

Private sector is often ahead in, uh, technology development.

They have different experiences.

And can you talk a little bit about the context of the AI revolution, just how that changes these public-private partnerships, and what are the novel concerns that those pr- uh, present, and has it changed your perspective on building these relationships?