Why is planned giving important, Jeff? Why should all nonprofits be thinking about legacy giving as part of their overall fundraising strategy?

Legacy giving has the opportunity to transform one's organization, and I think, you know, something for me that sort of where the little light bulb went off, I worked in public media, was hired as a major gift officer.

I didn't like my title.

I was like, "Ah," you know.

It was, it was hard for donors to grasp.

And I really like data.

I could understand trends and patterns.

So how can we have that first conversation? How do we get into this topic if we're a little hesitant to do so?

So how do you think about and talk about that definition in this community?

We've left that definition open to our community members so that it's not defined because I've worked with different organizations on their mid-level programs.

And for some organizations, mid-level starts at $250 gift.

For other organizations, it starts at 50,000.

And so using the dollar metric is not an identifier of mid-level, right? And so everyone, if they go back to like the middle, you mentioned middle child.

How I like to sort of refer to this, this is more of like the donor that's asleep in the data.

So if someone is analytical or they have great database person, it's like run, do some segments and see which segments do not naturally upgrade on their own.

Is it phone calls? Are there other engagement touch points that you recommend for the folks who are like, how do I even begin to acknowledge the fact that we have these mid-level donors? What are some of the things that you two recommend or that you've heard recommended in some of these gatherings of just where to start?