The entire idea of a store of value is because money has always been broken.

You've never been able to store your money in money.

So any store of value under broken money centralizes.

And then the rules change on the store of value because you've never had.

So the improvement on gold is it's money.

It's money that can be teleported anywhere, anytime without permission.

money,

these things will continue to sell.

So my first question is, what change have you noticed? What was your first impression and how have you seen the things change over time?

So I was here the first time and so after President adopted Bitcoin, I said, I need to see for myself what that looks like.

So I booked a trip in March of 2022 to give a speech here and see what was happening.

The day before my speech was the gang warfare.

And my family came in and they were scared.

But even in that time, you could see this light being turned on.

And there was hope.

And so what importance do you see with circular economies building up the new system?

I'm

not good, bad, indifferent, but this was not something that resonated with me whatsoever because I couldn't understand.

how you could create a valuable business by fractionalizing on top of that to be created in the long run right so that that it wasn't a financial engineering on top of bitcoin um inside an inflationary system didn't seem long-term valuable to me right so my time and energy went to ego death of building the ecosystem that I believe in building, investing in the privacy tools that are gonna be required for people to transact out of state control, right? Because you can see what's happening everywhere else.

So my energy has gone somewhere totally different and I live in that system.

From that viewpoint, We started having, because we were doing investor meetings with our LPs each month, and they too similarly started to see the same thing we did.

Bitcoin was emerging as a protocol.

In layers, it was adding functionality.

The

Where do you-- Do you think we're in the best spot that we've ever been right now, and what are your feelings currently on adoption?

Um, I think it needs to look exactly like this as it goes through us.

Um, when it-- when you say financial system, let's just park that for a minute, but it has to go through each of us and our changes in it to, to, to, uh, to, to move forward.

So let's go back to the financial system, which most people focus on, and most people focus on it.

It needs to be, uh, going up in the existing financial system.

So l- but look at first principles, what does that mean, right? We know that the, the, the debt is insolvent today.

The $350 trillion of debt in the world is insolvent today, and it's only solvent by, by giving away your energy by, by debasing your currency.

Jeff?

your ability to ask better questions to hit home to people, what have you found in those improvements to help people break through and see things differently?

So first, one of those things is, is the natural state of the free market deflation, right? And by asking the question and turning it on, you force somebody to go, okay, so how do new things emerge, right? We're living in a fabric of reality that we all believed in.

entrepreneur created more value.

If they created more value, you move from your preexisting what you believed to the new thing because it gave you more value.

So you're part of the market choices that drive the productivity, right? And if an entrepreneur comes into the market and delivers less value, they always fail.

So the output of that, so one of those questions would be that, right? How could that resolve itself? Why aren't prices falling? And as that bounces around in your mind, you can't resolve it because what it means is You're trying to resolve it through a monetary system that's always been debased, always been manipulated.

And so as you hold that thought and say, is that true? And it's true for sure.

What's something I can point to that can break through the noise of price? Because that seems to be all they care about.

So let's-- I, I don't wanna take for granted that every single person watching has watched our conversations in the past, so maybe we should at least lay the TLDR framework for exactly what we're talking about and what those actions are.

Sure.

So at the top level, uh, of, of the framework is the natural state of the free market is deflation.

Now, if you've measured and been in a system that has always been the opposite, what I just said there will, will-- you will push back again that it can't be true and it can't be true.

But just ask the next question.

I-I'm just saying first principles.

You-- The free market rewards delivering value to somebody else on their terms, period.

Yeah.

But you're saying, you're saying, you're saying Bitcoin is imposing discipline.

It's impo- it's imposing a discipline that we wouldn't choose.

We wouldn't allow the existing system to collapse.

We wouldn't allow...

We, we think there's a savior.

There, we think there's, "Elon will save us.

Trump will save us." This other...

So now we're on and off.

Thank you for posting that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, let's see.

So, so the issue people aren't thinking about, I kind of talked about this yesterday, so I'm not going to go blather on about it, but I think what most people are missing is where we are in the grand scheme of things.

The, the 30,000 foot view, the big cycle, Ray Dalio's big debt cycle, um, uh, massively over indebted nation States, uh, massive income inequality, uh, social unrest that's arising from all of it, the fact that a sound money system would incentivize much different outcomes and much different consequences, second-order effects, third-order effects, we would be in a very different place.

And I think that we are all spiraling into chaos, and it greatly concerns me.

I just got to say

And so I asked myself a

couple of questions.

So I start from a different place most Bitcoiners are starting from.

Most Bitcoiners are essentially, how do I make number go up? And from that place, make number go up, they don't realize that they're falling into the trap of the existing control system because the only reason prices go up is the money goes down.

And so if Bitcoin is going up to you, then you're measuring it from that control system and what else would happen.

So inside what I just said, that means very few people would be using Bitcoin as a currency.

They would be using it as store value.

I don't know if you think Bitcoin, the 110 is going to cause a chain split and that the market will decide which one the winner is.

this all streams from, if you start at the top, and

most Bitcoiners know this, I consider Bitcoin as money in a transition from a system where we think of debt as money.

and debt needs to expand forever and increase more and more debt.

I love it.

And Bitcoin is money and it's hard money.

So would that fit into two different models? Most people are measuring the world they live in by the money is debt.

And money is debt, has to expand money for supply forever, has to have inflation, has to consolidate gains into very few hands, has to centralize everything, has to surveil everything to keep that centralization because it's against the laws of the free market where prices fall.

you resilient.

is the

money goes down.

And so if Bitcoin is going up to you, then you're measuring it from that control system and what else would happen.

And so inside what I just said, that means very few people would be using Bitcoin as a currency.

they would be using it as store value.

And they might see themselves as store value.

They might see themselves as a Bitcoiner.

these

So what differentiates Orange Juice from the other more fiat-minded ones?

Yeah.

And it's actually the partners of Ego Death came together and created this.

So Lynn is a partner to us in this.

So it's not one more than any others.

But what ended up happening in it is You know what I've been saying for over and over forever, right? That move more of your time into Bitcoin and it reflects back to you.

You're living in the honest protocol and you start to see opportunities in the honest protocol and it takes some time.

Where do you want to go next? What else are you excited about at the moment in Bitcoin? Or in anything else?

What does that look like to you in that future? So this

is why these are so hard to, so you have to start at, is what I said true, right? And it is for sure true.

The free market produces deflation or productivity growth.

Productivity growth is deflation, right? So first you have to say, is that true? Now, if you've never lived in it, and you're measuring government from the other system, then government would get bigger and bigger and bigger because it was a centralizing structure.

If you're just government would be one aspect of something that was manipulated money, those other people needed to control.

And if you watch that other structure, you would see government getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

You say, I'm going to remove it with Doge.

That, to me, at least, is a different view from, I think, what you have in how we

It's like, say, oh, well, what about when the first man exchanged something with somebody else in a barter? Isn't that a free economy, free trade economy? Yeah.

So let's use, let's use, let's use that.

I'm talking about a global free market and there were local free markets, but every time they, as they, as they grew, somebody took, so, so typically like we, you could go back to any, maybe we could go through some examples, but if I don't, if I, if I skirt the issue and you want to take it deeper, go, you can take it deeper.

When kings, kings would coin clip, right? And you'd run inflation through coin clipping, essentially stealing from the people that were trading your thing and its concentrating power.

At some point, that would always break because people found out.

It was realization and the entire thing collapses under its own weight.

And that happened over and over and over again in certain regions.

Jeff, what's the price of tomorrow?

And I wanted to start with the question, where does this confidence come from? Well, why do we have it? I think

for me, thinking in first principles and then understanding my role in it and everybody's role in it.

So thinking in first principles, let's start with, is the natural state of the free market deflation or not? And everybody nods and says, yes, it is.

And it is because we have to compete with what was there before as entrepreneurs.

And people only use our product or service if it provides them more value.

So it's an axiom.

It is true that the natural state of the free market is deflation.

What are you kind of seeing right now of the state of Bitcoin that makes you very hopeful and maybe also one thing that makes you fearful or not fearful but worries you a little bit? So...

Can you help us understand the role of Bitcoin and where are we in that transition of Bitcoin becoming some kind of asset that is much more important to the world than it was 10 or 15 years ago? I

think it's actually the most simple.

When I say simple, there's layers of this understanding.

And just for your audience, I've spent probably 15,000 hours myself trying to kill Bitcoin.

So when you're hearing what I'm saying now, it's not just, okay, I want this to be true and it's true and I'm just going to, and why I'm investing on top of and everything else.

Take it from somebody who understood the gravity of the situation, that the free market, we've never lived in the natural state of the free market, so we wouldn't have a pattern recognition for what I'm saying.

All of our models came from historical zero-sum game that mean, like our model of democracy is, When did you last vote for how much monetary printing there was? Do you actually have a vote that matters when most of the theft, you have no vote in it? And the consequence of that theft on crime and people and picking the pockets of people and everything else, the consequences are too downstream of the thing you have no vote in.

Can you just unpack for us a little bit what's that company about and why was it interesting for you to invest in that?

Why do you think it matters for this audience in this moment that we touch on and talk about consciousness and spirituality alongside a monetary protocol?

Uh, the highest level, a little, you know, uh, i- is because the w- the world is a, is a reflection of us, right? We bump into each other.

Um, our individual reality is a reflection of us.

We bump into other people, and we can't believe they l- they see reality like they see, but it's real for them, too.

And, and so that construct, um, means that the change isn't Bitcoin, the change is us.

And it...

And, and, and, and you can see this.

My question is, I really like your picture of, like, um, Bitcoin being a teenager in a identity crisis, and the question is: how do you see the path this teenager becomes a loving, compassionate grown-up and not a angry person who is just bashing on people and knowing better?

Mm-hmm.

It means prices should fall as we gain more value, as we remove more labor, because we will remove labor.

If a business doesn't use AI to remove labor, you won't use the business because it'll be too high-priced against somebody who does.

So you will use the thing that gives you the most value.

Um, and that means that productivity should flow to you in a free market prices should fall and you should get more and more value as you had a global competition competing in an infinite game, more competition, more value creation and prices fall, fall faster.

That's the world you should live in.

Um, It means, as a consequence, you've never lived in a free market.

Take us through what you do and most interestingly, what the vision is of the fund also in relationship to its name.

Did we fail in that? Did Bitcoin fail as a hedge against inflation in digital gold?

No, I just don't.

I don't think there's any we.

There's no one group of, if you said you're a Bitcoiner, what does that mean? Because there's all different layers of Bitcoiners.

At the bottom of the entire thing is our own agency.

And let me why this is so hard, right? Why this is so hard is we can run a node.

We can be in self custodial Bitcoin.

But what is different in their thinking thinking to the normal people you just described that can just change through their agency?

What's your, what's your read on the situation?

Yeah, it's, uh, uh, similar.

Uh, so again, I'm not measuring Bitcoin in a piece of paper.

I think it's a fool's err- errand 'cause, 'cause you're measuring something that's being debased.

You know it has to be debased at an exponential rate, and you're choosing to measure Bitcoin in the thing that's being debased.

So, so Bitcoin is measuring productivity and, and measuring prices falling everywhere.

It is a protocol measuring that.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Right? So, so let's take four different personas, and a persona, like, 'cause it's almost a marketing word for a group of people who act like this, right? And so a person- a persona, you don't know that money is broken, um, and you're measuring through that money.

To, to you, Bitcoin just looks like another scam, right? To, uh, the...

w- there's no use case.

What is this thing? I can trust institutions, I can trust the politicians, I can trust it, because you have no idea that money is broken.

And, and, and by...

From that measure for you, what will come back, right? Your belief will fee- right back, you'll be watching the same media believing that so- something's not...

Mm.

Jeff, people were probably thinking, "Why is Jeff Booth on this call? What's his role here?" [chuckles]

So you know, or people know, how much reading I do, how much thinking I do, and when I'm stuck on something, I just continue to go down the rabbit hole.

And the same reason took me down Bitcoin, same reason many people went down the road of Bitcoin.

And physics is something I've been stuck on for...

Physics, generally, has been two different models of physics that don't work together for ninety years, and a whole bunch of theories that can't make them work together.

So when Jack and Nick first brought this paper to me, you can imagine that you two, Preston, I know this is true, we see a lot of information, and we see a lot of stuff that might not jive with what we believe, and it forces us to, "Okay, could this be true? And look deeper." So when Jack and Nick first showed me this paper...

And how long ago was this? Almost a year?

That's what Planck time as this limit represents in our current understanding within the frameworks of physics that we've inherited.