So can you give us that story to start?

I sure can.

Yeah.

So sometimes I would speak on that before I wrote the book.

And I like to call that speech, I'm hit by a rock and stuck in a hard spot.

I thought that was a pretty clever title for the conference section.

But I did have a repelling accident in the Wind River Range in 2000.

What is changing? What has shifted over the years from your position either as a recreationist yourself or a leader? Culturally, inclusion-wise, what are some big shifts that you have seen in the outdoor sports and adventure world?

I think one of the things as an industry that maybe we can struggle with, and sometimes this depends on the participant group that we have, the instructor in charge, the program director, but where do we find the point between purposeful challenge and unnecessary hardship.

My mind just had a whole bunch of different thoughts, right? Because I think the false creation of adversity is performative, right? And so I think that's what we're not trying to do.

So my mind actually just popped two examples of I led an expedition to Norway last year, and it was very, very different for both me and for the participants because I chose to lead in a different way.

So rather than being the one who is teaching the outdoor skills, I made it very clear that this was a leadership expedition that was using the outdoors.

And so even in things like where the trip started from and what equipment, people had the equipment list, people knew the location, but they had to figure out how to get there.

They had to navigate to the foreign country, to the hotel.

They needed to look through the packing list.

How do we try to bridge the professionalization of the industry without becoming disconnected from the people that we need to serve the most?