Yeah.

Physically and geographically.

And so whether it's Greenland, defense, uh, and, we're part of the, uh, European Safe, uh, Program, which is a, a new program they put forward to, uh, develop their defense industry, and whether it's labor mobility, for example.

I did an agreement with France in 208 about labor mobility.

It's the most advanced in the world.

The idea, Matt, was that a doctor in France is a doctor in Quebec, an engineer in Quebec, an engineer in France, and to make it as seamless as possible for people to move from one place to the other.

Now, let's look into the future.

Do you worry about deepening ties to Europe impacting our, our, our sovereignty?

Did, did you actually get a, an idea of why this is happening?

This was a conference that I was attending in Kentucky, and it was called World Trade Day, and I was invited to be a keynote speaker.

And this was the opening fireside chat, which was fascinating because this is the take of an o- the narrative of an official, not an elected person, on what they're doing on trade.

And what he said, in a very, you know, dispassionate way, is that, "We did trade deals in the past, but the assumptions changed.

It did not...

It wasn't what we thought it was, so that's why we're changing them." And then he went on to say that, uh, you know, they're not tight competition with China on AI.

Fine, we get that.

Do you believe this relationship is damaged, Monsieur Shareth, through the course of the Trump presidency? Or is there room for negotiation here, and do you see that coming?

... at this point to be in a full-blown trade war right now?

Well, it, it, it's close to that, but I wanna take a moment.

I listened to President Trump about 9/11, and I just wanted to add that Canadians have a great deal of respect and admiration for the character of the American people and those who lost and, and gave their lives, and we will grieve with you on, on the anniversary in a few days from now.

So, uh, back to the tariffs.

It's, uh, it's a, it is, uh, an unusual situation.

We're doing counter-tariffs because we feel that we have to respond to an administration who seems to think that Canada should not exist.

And, uh, it's, uh, it's not because we wanna do it, and we hurt ourselves, by the way, when we do this, Pam.

What would it take to, to get back to where we were a- and for Canada to pull back on these tariffs? And as you look ahead to the next two and a half years of Trump being in office, what does that relationship look like between the two countries?

Um, I wonder where you see this relationship going, uh, from a moment like that in the Oval Office today.

Well, let, let me just observe that the last time the President paid attention to a body of water, it was the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool.

And i- if I remember correctly, it didn't finish well.

So, uh, we're [laughs] i- part of it is, is almost funny, but the other part is real issues for people in their day-to-day lives.

And here in the United States, from we, we see, you're involved in war in Iran.

Uh, you have a bond market i- issue that's very serious.

Last week you crossed the threshold of $40 trillion worth of debt.

I mean, he's saying that Canada treats the United States worse than China.

Do you think that this will become something of an election issue, and do you think that's good or bad for these negotiations?

I met yesterday with the executive of the World Trade Council here in Kentucky, Louisville, Kentucky.

They raised with me the issue of American debt.

And I'm mentioning this because it, this is a big part of what's, has been happening in the last few days in the United States.

The American, uh, government has a bond market issue.

This could turn into a crisis.

And why? Well, because they have $40 trillion worth of debt, a war in Iran, uh, they have inflation that doesn't seem to wanna go down, and a new, uh, Fed governor, a new Fed, uh, governor who i- is, whose positions are uncertain, and tariffs.

Do you think he's onto something? Is that how you see it?

Just how concerning is this situation right now to you when it comes to the broader relationship between the United States and Canada?

Canada is the biggest customer of the United States.

No holds barred.

We are the one who buy the most goods and services from our American neighbor with whom we get along very well.

But this trade war, Wolf, is completely gone off the rails.

I mean, this started with the president announcing a new round of 50 percent tariffs on $20 billion worth of goods.

For example, Wolf, the president wants to tax Christmas decorations, Christmas decorations.

Do you support his decision to walk away from these talks right now, or is that too risky right now when it comes to dealing with the Trump administration?

... what's your reaction to what we just heard from President Trump?

Well, we, we made a lot of progress in the last few weeks in negotiations.

Uh, we reengaged after the president announced a new series of tariffs, invoking, uh, an old piece of Smoot-Hawley legislation, a Section 338, and, uh, both the Prime Minister Carney and President Trump decided to reengage.

We've been at the table, we've been talking, and that in itself is good news.

Uh, Canada wants a, a few things.

We do not want these new tariffs to come in, uh, into play.

We also want the American side to reduce the tariffs under the 232s.

Have you heard anything this morning from the prime minister?

Uh, in terms of a deadline, does it benefit either side more than the other, or do, do they have competing goals on that?

Well, the, the positive side of this story is that after the announcement of this new round of tariffs that, that is based on legislation never used before by President Trump, goes all the way back to a bill voted in 1930 of all things, that both the prime minister and the president decide to reengage.

And we were not at the table.

So that in itself is very good news.

There mean, it means there's a willingness to actually try to resolve this, and so that's, that's where we are.

The prime minister and the president talked yesterday.

That's always good.

Even with the, the, the staring down the barrel of some, yes, very targeted tariffs, but ones that will be quite painful if they go into place, um, that's, that, that's not something that should make us capitulate?

How does Canada turn the tables? How does Canada change that power dynamic so that it's not constantly having to just try to fight back like this?

You- an- and the word power dynamic describes it very well, Katie.

You know, the Americans are a superpower, and they're much bigger than we are.

We have to be more strategic, we have to be smarter, and we have to be patient, and that's what I'm seeing right now.

And what does that mean? It means that rather than just engaging on a piecemeal basis, we need a broader discussion.

We always have wanted to have a discussion, Katie, that would include defense, security, uh, strategic minerals, not just a specific tariff.

And if you roll all of that in that it makes sense that we have a, a, an agreement that speaks to the interest on both sides.

Are you saying that the Canadian government in this moment has gone back to that approach, the one that blew up last year?

When you listen to some of those comments, what sort of goes through your mind in those moments?

I'm actually not surprised, and you probably are not surprised also.

I mean, observers of Mr. Trump over the last few years would know that it's probably pretty typical for him to go back and forth on these things.

It's unclear in his response whether he is well informed on the mechanics of all of this, because the way this works on the first, first of all, it is not a renegotiation that was agreed to several years ago, but a revision, the verb, people fought over the verb, though it may not count a lot for the Trump administration.

They do whatever they want.

But it was supposed to be revised, that was the idea, on the 1st of July as the agreement continues into 2036.

And if nothing happens, on the 1st of July next, we don't fall off a cliff.

Why is that the real issue?

Yeah

... negotiate at one point.

And, uh, and we've been there.

We've seen this movie before.

Uh, w- we hear them, and w- we just wanna sit down and start negotiating on the core issues.

And by the way, one thing that we do know is that in the American business community, David, they want this trade agreement to continue.

They want it to be enhanced if we can do it.

Yeah.

I'm wondering as you sort of take a, a view from 50 f- feet above what your assessment of the state of things between Canada and the United States is right now.

Well, we live in the Trump world, so a lot of what's happening is unpredictable.

Essentially, the position that Canada's taking is that it's better to wait and get a good deal into the future than to have a bad deal now, and to have to live with it a very long time.

And so, uh, and, and mind you, Vassy, uh, things have changed in the short period of a year.

There's been the Supreme Court ruling on the IEPA, uh, legislation that Mr. Trump used.

They overturned that.

Uh, we have the midterms that are coming up.

How does the federal government balance that idiom with the kind of pain that many sectors are feeling right now, and that uncertainty I mentioned, and that you mentioned, enveloping the economy more largely?

Does this ruling today by the U.S. Supreme Court take the teeth out of any of Trump's tariff threats, including raising these tariffs against Canada?

It weakens the position of the administration, if only because it makes the point that the tariffs are a competency of the Congress and the House and not the executive who used emergency powers that now have been invalidated.

That being said, Wolf, 85 to 90 percent of all the goods that go back and forth between Canada and the United States are covered under the previous trade agreement negotiated by Donald Trump called KUSMA.

And there is no tariffs on that.

And there are special tariffs that are not affected by this decision today by the Supreme Court of the United States on steel, aluminum, on cars, on softwood lumber that will continue to be in place and are very damaging to our industry, but also very damaging to the American economy.

The good news today is for American consumers, frankly.

I mean, the recent study, I think, of the Fed and another study indicated that they're paying, American consumers paid at least $1,000 more in taxes through tariffs in the last year, in 2025.

Related to all of this, are the tariffs and the other threats made on Canada by the Trump administration, and there have been many over these past months, is that what drove Canada closer to China in the first place, this new trade agreement that Canada has with China?