And acknowledging the complexities when you're working with humans in general and especially young people when they're at that critical kind of development phase of their life and they're kind of, you know, curious but also don't really have the life experiences to kind of guide them and youth workers are so – so great at being that support um but also being able to like look after yourself to pour that extra energy out um you talked a lot about you know your your passion with working with young people and um creativity um yeah where was that kind of collision point where you're like oh I can actually do something about weaving creativity in the way that I work with young people

Oh, thank you so much.

I love talking about this.

I love when people ask me about this.

So I've always been a creative being.

I was very much into art, painting, photography, that kind of stuff, design in high school.

I absolutely loved it.

For those listeners who don't know what 4C is or 4C Centre, can you just quickly explain what that is and the spaces and the programs that you...