How would you explain the red card situation, and why was that so meaningful?

So the US, you know, like superstar Folarin Balogun gets a red card, and he's their star.

This is gonna be a huge problem moving forward, and then President Trump says, like he publicly says that he called FIFA and said, you know, "This was not a fair call." We know that President Trump and FIFA President Gianni Infantino have been seen together.

They've expressed a closeness.

So it was really seen as like the US government interfering in that red call, and, and FIFA effectively removed the red card, annulled it.

Hmm.

Cabo Verde was stunning.

They were, defensively, they were a wall.

And I'm just very curious, Jas, about how you've been seeing this conversation play out and how you've been metabolizing it.

Yeah, I mean, look, you know, like, I have been wondering a lot as a white Latina.

My, my dad's side of is Argentine Ukrainian, and his family, of course, benefited from Argentina's more accepting policies towards Eastern Europeans, you know? So first of all, the Argentina I grew up in was a society with racism.

Um, I grew up seeing it.

I grew up hearing it.

I didn't always know as a kid how to respond to it.

And I will not entertain debates about whether or not it was real because I was there, and I know what I heard, and I know what I saw, and it was often directed towards-

Oh, whoa.

Mm-hmm

... from the top down, uh, from the administration and from the, the ruling party right now that the US is fundamentally at its core a country that is closed, that does not want foreigners, that is not open, and that is xenophobic.

And so then I think part of the great joy, one of the reasons people are enjoying this Cup so much is, is this, this moment of seeing that this isn't entirely the case, that there are people in the US that are incredibly welcoming and friendly and that want moments like these.

[laughs]

You know? It's in politics.

It's present in the economy.

Um, and I think, you know, w- what I'm seeing with this World Cup is that it is completely inaccessible for a lot of people.

You know, I've been spending so much of this World Cup in immigrant communities in different parts of the country, um, with people who couldn't even dream to afford it, uh, but are watching from home, and I think there's something really sad about that.

Jasmine, why don't we start with you?

The first thing that I'll say is my nine-to-five, my job is I cover immigration, and there's a climate of a very well-founded fear right now in the US that very much affects how safe people feel doing everyday things.

For context, I live in New York.

Much of the World Cup is gonna be played at MetLife in New Jersey.

About 15 minutes away from the MetLife stadium, where the final is gonna be held, there's currently a hunger strike at an ICE detention facility because of allegations of absolutely horrific conditions for immigrants in detention.

Now, DHS Homeland Security has said that they'll have the normal presence that they would have at any massive international event held in the US, and that there won't be ICE raids at the games.

But nevertheless, I mean, if you think about who loves fútbol more than anyone in the US, who just lives for fútbol, it's the immigrant communities.

Mm-hmm.

He's considered to be one of the best players in the universe to ever play the game, and yet Argentina still hasn't won a World Cup.

He takes it so seriously.

Like, I, I read in some interview that he was mentioning that his wife was like, "I think you need to go [laughs] to therapy." Like, he, he takes it very much to heart, and he, he has these heartbreaking statements where he's just like, "I'm just done," you know? "I'm just done.

Like, I can't do this anymore.

It's bad for me." And, you know, 2022, I- obviously now we know that's not the case, but it, it is wildly hailed as, like, his last Cup, his last World Cup, uh, and the last shot.

Like, this guy who is, like, widely considered the best or one of the best players in the world, and this is just the one thing he doesn't get, and it's the highest, the highest praise.

And, but also, I mean, something really interesting happens, which is you get this coach, Leo Scaloni.

What'll, what will you be watching out for when he plays?

That song was a, a colossal hit worldwide, which does make me think about the power of this particular stage, but also, like, how in the world is Shakira gonna, like, top that this time around?

I don't know if it, it'll, if it's gonna top that, but it, it really does seem like FIFA has Shakira on speed dial.

Um, it is true, Waka Waka really resonated with people, was a huge hit, and, you know, who knows if this new song is gonna do that? But FIFA is pulling out all the stops.

Um, they're having a halftime show for the first time.

It's, it's the first time there will be a halftime show in a World Cup.

Um, and it has been a little bit polarizing between traditional fans who say, you know, this is like the NFLization, the Americanization of the sport-

Like, talk to me about some of these communities that are really excited and why this is such a big deal for them.

Well, you know, I think we were just talking about visas and the Trump administration's, uh, policy towards travel to the US and immigration.

Like, talk to me about some of these communities that are really excited and why this is such a big deal for them.

Well, you know, I think we were just talking about visas and the Trump administration's, uh, policy towards travel to the US and immigration.

I think one of the big concerns that many advocates and, and frankly communities have is, uh, ICE presence and ICE raids at and around the stadiums, right? Soccer is huge in immigrant communities across the US, and these are communities that have been, uh, targeted extensively in, in, in a historic way.

Really, we're talking about unprecedented numbers, um, throughout the last, uh, year or so.

So this has been a big concern.

DHS has said it will have presence at games, um, in, in the same way that it would have presence at any international event being held in the US.

There have been indications that there won't be ICE raids at the events.

You're welcome.

... those, those statements?

Sure.

I mean, here's some other facts.

Uh, the facts also are that there are an unprecedented number of immigrants in detention, around 60,000 consistently.

The facts also are that around 70% of those people have no criminal conviction.

And immigration lawyers I've spoken to have told me that they believe these conditions in ICE detention are meant to break people into opting for, uh, voluntary leave.

Uh, in other words, that the immigrant themselves pays to be sent away.

Can you give us a sense of what you saw and what you heard from detainees?

And unprecedented.

Yeah.

It is unprecedented.

I mean, I think w- what we're really talking about here is, uh, America's identity since World War II, as, as Lee was mentioning, right? I mean, the identity, whether or not in practice it was this, uh, the...

at least, uh, you know, it was s- spoken of, American identity, as, as this place where people could come and seek refuge.

Um, and, you know, I think what we're seeing is a legal pushback by the courts to say, "No," like, you know, "You cannot do this."

Why?

Well, it's a combination of things, right? I mean, the, the administration's default is to detain.

They've targeted children.

I mean, the numbers are extraordinary, and the numbers speak for themselves.

Uh, right now, pretty consistently, uh, for the last 14 months, uh, it's been around, uh, 70,000 people in detention pretty consistently, and around 74% of those people have no criminal conviction whatsoever.

And so I think this, this information is extraordinary because on the one hand, um, you have this failure to, uh, go after white-collar crimes and on the other hand, um, you have a historic amount of people who, again, no criminal conviction, and are sitting in detention centers, which by the way, stand to make a lot of money.

There are a lot of people that are gonna be making a lot of money on those detention centers.

Yeah.

I think for many Americans, Minneapolis was just this, this moment of, "This has gone too far.

This is too much.

Tell us what it looks like.

Yeah.

So one town I spent time in is Roxbury, New Jersey.

Roxbury is a conservative town on the edge of Lake Musconetcong, and it's, it's very picturesque.

And overlooking the town on a sort of cliff over the lake, there's this massive warehouse which ICE has purchased to turn into a detention center with nearly five hundred thousand square feet.

So I drove up there for myself, and I ended up talking to neighbors.

I spoke to one young man, W. He's twenty-two.

Did you find anybody who likes all this?

And we know about these two stories, but these are not the only two stories of their kind.

No.

Actually, you know, we've been covering at NPR stories like these.

I mean, certainly this is one of the... two of the more egregious cases that I've heard of.

But there is a ubiquitousness to some of the elements of these stories.

Uh, the no access to lawyers, U.S. citizen children.

This is certainly not the first time that I've reported on U.S. citizen children being detained.

... is beginning to catch up with our politics?