Okay.

She, she asked.

She shared.

Um, maybe I was a little freaked at, at first in the abstract.

Um, and then I, I will never forget, like, the first time Hannah and Gillian read together, which was, like, three days before production.

It was like, yeah, you write...

I- it's, there's a lot of dialogue in that scene we just listened to and in, in some of those early scenes, and it's supposed to be snappy in this way.

Yeah

You know, getting to build a world in the way that these franchises exist, and the sort of collective memory, whether like gathering dust on a shelf or in the mind of these fanatics, must have been just so much fun, and I would love to hear about how you built this history for the Miasma franchise.

Yeah, fun is, fun is the word for it.

Uh, it, it, it's a film about play, right? And it's a, it's a film about, like, trying to be in a state of, like, unselfconscious joy.

This is why at the beginning and end of the film, we see these kids playing.

It, it really, like, that was a reminder to myself to, like, be in that state of mind while, while making the film, because, yeah, the first two movies that I made are-- I'm so proud of them, but they're very serious movies, and they, they're kind of like me trying to get, like, an A+ on the test a bit maybe.

Um, whereas this one, I, I, like, really, like, made it my challenge to, like, let my freak flag fly and be, like, completely unselfconscious in myself.

And so that just meant, yeah, giving myself a lot of really fun gifts.

[laughs]

Yeah.

Um, yeah, because they both showed up, uh, having done so much work, like figuring out their takes on these characters.

And in a lot of ways, like, their, like, freaky, weird takes on the characters.

Like, they each had the kind of like com- individual comic understanding of, like, who these people were in, in like the way that the movie is about two weird people meeting each other and forming a connection And then I do remember the, um, yeah, I think it was like three days before we started shooting when we first got the two of them together in a room.

Um, and they were so dialed in to, like, the, the comic timing.

I, I remember, like, sitting there being like, "Oh, we've got, like, a good movie." Like, the movie in many ways is just, like, a house for the two of them to, to live in.

Um, and they were, and they were so...

Is that something you feel like you have to stay close to the source material, or is it kind of an opportunity to have your own spin on that graphic novel?

Christmas 2022 at my ex's

parents' house.

And I was lying in bed and I was staring up at the vent and I was like looking for, you know, because usually like pastiche, contemporary slasher pastiche, they just give like a hockey mask that's like a little bit off brand and I cannot get sued.

And I was just like, no, like I love, I love like Freddy Krueger and yeah, like Jason and Michael Myers.

They just like loom as these figures that are just kind of like, yeah, they are kind of cartoonish in their way.

And I really, I was like, I don't know what it, it can't be overly complicated.

You know, I can't put him in like gender clothes or something, you know, like it needs to be something that's a little like subconscious brain and something like simple, something that like is iconographic, but like kind of also like what, like are hidden in plain sight.

What was it? How did that even, where did she come from? A lot

Yeah

... and the second half of that, that sequence is Jack with a SnorriCam, uh, like a 60-pound rig strapped to them.

They are literally, they are, like, the, the camera op, uh, in that moment.

Uh, and they're doing this dance, this dance through the space that, um, is so elegant and seems so effortless.

But it was like, it was one of those, like, all-time great not even movie moments, but like, for me, like, life moments where it was like, uh, with a shot that ambitious, it takes, like, five hours to get ready to even film, and then it's like, "Okay, how many hours do we have left in this day?"

Mm

... direction actually, like, was in frame.

Deceptively very, very hard.

Mm.

And, and then that familiarity, like, now it's invisible to me because, like, very quickly we just, like, started forming a connection as people, and yeah.

And you're, you're, you're so different than the roles, all of the roles I've, I've seen you in, and that's what's so wonderful about, like, this performance and all of the others.

Um, but yeah, the, th- there is definitely, like, the iconography in the film that was in my head while writing it, and I was, I was thinking about Gillian while writing it, of, like, um, yeah, like somebody who, who, who we, when we see her, will believe her as, like, this icon from, like, a, a, a, you know, a past life or, or, or, or a past, like, franchise or something.

But I think m- more than that, there is this, like, um...

Yeah, there are very few actors who can, like, make the entrance that, that Gillian makes in this movie, and it has something to do I think with, like, like, the classical old Hollywood, like, just, like, glitter or something.

[laughs]

... on the internet or whatever from franchises.

I wanted to know how thi- this film connects to your filmography, to the previous ones, and in which ways it doesn't.

Mm.

Yeah, this is, in a funny way, my first post-transition film.

Um, I made both of my films after coming out to myself.

Um, I made TV Glow about a year on hormones, but that movie was written in, like, the direct aftermath of, yeah, this, like, insane reality-warping, overwhelming experience of- of, like, being a 32 or 33-year-old or whatever and telling everyone in your life, your family, your wife, that you're about to transition.

[laughs] Um, that was a movie about, um, yeah, how, like, overwhelming and insane getting to that place where you're ready to become yourself is.

And, um, but it- it- it- it knows better than to try to then explain what's gonna happen once you do become yourself.

The film is also an homage to that feeling of watching those '80s slasher movies without overthinking, you know? How did that get into the film?

Yeah.

I, I've, I remember teaching myself how to, like, write visually very early on, um, because it's not, like, a skill that, that came naturally, actually.

Like, um, a- and when I was teaching myself to write screenplays, yeah, you really have to be like, "No, I'm putting..." Especially if you're planning to make it yourself, it's not someone else's problem.

It would be, like, dumb of me to be not thinking about that while I'm writing the movie.

And so it really is, it's like, when I'm writing a script, I'm, I'm trying to just play the movie in my head over and over again until I can see it, you know, maybe, like, fuzzy, but a little bit.

And then, you know, I'll, I'll sit down with, with Eric and, and some of my other key col- collaborators before we even start prep, and we'll, like, do, like, a theoretical shot listing.

And then you location scout and you find the actual places, and so then you do another round of it, and then you're there and it's like, "Oh, we had this whole plan to do this in 10 shots, but the day is making it so that we have, you know, three at best.

... eye-opening moment of this is, like, what's not just possible with cinema, but also, like, a way to view life?

[laughs]

... at first in the abstract.

Um, and then I r- I will never forget, like, the first time Hannah and Gillian read together, which was, like, three days before production.

It was like, yeah, you write...

It, it's, there's a lot of dialogue in that scene we just listened to and in, in some of those early scenes, and it's supposed to be snappy in this way.

And it just had, like, all of these dimensions that were there but weren't there when I, when I heard it between the two of them, and, and I think specifically what Gillian is going for there versus, like, Hannah's more, like, grounded-

Yeah.

There were days...

I mean, that's, yeah.

And, and the, um, the quote you read, which I like, uh, I don't remember saying it, but seems right, um, [laughs] is definitely, like, also at the heart of, like, what I was trying to do with this film, which, like, yeah, this film definitely came from a post-transition experience of, like, trying to have non-dissociative sex for the first time in my life and trying to, like, be able to face desire that, yeah, there was just a lot of trauma and a lot of baggage torn up within it.

And, um, and what that required was, like, uh, uh, you know, and this is nothing new that, you know, there, there, this is territory that's been e- explored by, like, you know, the k- community, BDSM community for, for a long, long time.

But, like, the idea of, like you said, creating, like, a space that's so safe, a space where afterwards you know you're gonna be, like, eating candy with the person, and th- that, that it's through that, that, like, understood safety that can exist in the back of your mind that you can go to scary places, right? And this is, and this is, like, I think both the appeal of the, the slasher film, right, and the appeal, or for me, like, the need in order to- Feel comfortable, yeah, like, um, interrogating and playing in that contradiction that you're ta- that scary contradiction that you're talking about, about desire.

Um, I think that, yeah, this, this line in the movie, right, where, where it's repeated a few times, "Now if it gets too real, you can always turn it off," this is like a way of, of like articulating something about, like, consent that is essential to the experience.

And when Chris at the end says, "It doesn't feel like play," and, and Billy responds, "I know, but it is," like this...

Yeah, the film is trying to, like, create the language and to put you into an experience that in some way hopefully, like, reflects what I at least needed to be able to go to some scary places within myself.

[laughs]

Mm-hmm.

And, and it was like, I remember I, I, because it was playing at New Directors, I, like, got a pass to New Directors, and I hadn't been in a movie theater in a year and a half because of the pandemic.

I'd been inside, and it was, like, just precipice safe to leave again.

And I, like, I got a mask, and I was just like, "I'm just gonna go watch four movies a day at the Walter Reade." And I, I sat in the Walter Reade for, like, like, three or four days straight just watching these, like, uh- Yeah, these, these, these movies by young filmmakers from around the world and then my own, and yeah, that was, that was so special to get to do.

You really, like...

Yeah, I missed, I missed the theater.

Just gotta shout out that, like, the latest theater in my life is, um, like I said, I, I live in Upstate New York, and there's this movie theater in, in Catskill called The Community Theater that opened up a video store out of the front of house.

We're putting, uh, The Rambler and The Love Witch up on the Audience Award.

Yeah.

'Cause I think it, like, it is my experience of, of, of, like, the memory of being a kid is, um...

It's all in there.

Like, the Spielberg stuff is obviously in there, too.

Like, there, there's a, like a...

I, I think I try, I try to explain it as just, like, when you're a kid and you're born into, like, the Burger King ball pit, you, like, find a way to find that beautiful, you know? Like, like, you, 'cause you have to 'cause you're a human being with a heart and, like, you're still alive, and there's magic to being alive.

Yeah, being raised in, like, the suburbs, it's a very artificial environment, and it's an environment that's been, like, created to seem normal and natural, and everyone around you is telling you that it is, like, perfect and safe and idyllic.

... at the end of the world and making it all worth it.

Or if y- or if it's not even a consideration, then please share that.

Oh, it's, it's such a consideration.

And I think I tend to be a realist about it, and I, I think that, that this topic is really under-discussed.

I think that there's sort of this myth of the auteur that generally benefits, like, white dudes, you know? Like, white dudes get to just sort of hang out with Martin Scorsese and pretend like they're geniuses, and they never have to worry about infrastructure-...

structural commercial concerns, but that's because it's easier for them to sort of be labeled as, as, quote unquote, "geniuses" or "visionaries" or whatever it might be, and that sucks.

But I think everyone is a little bit careerist/I think you have to be a little bit careerist if you wanna have any kind of sustainable art-making practice in this medium, which is expensive.

And yeah, I th- I thought a ton about it.

Can you talk about how the, this new movie came about? Like, was it something that you wrote and then pitched, or was it just, like, a concept that you pitched and then you got hired to write? Or, like, w- how did this whole thing happen? And I know you ki- can't talk a bunch about the story details, but just, like, I'd love to hear about the details of the deal and how it came to be.

Yeah.

And, like, when I think about the, like, language of the girls' movement in this movie, I, I think the thing that sticks out more to me is just, like, how they're really, like, they're not really captured in close-ups that much until pretty, like, far into the movie or-

Ah, who's that?

No, David.

In fact, I see why you were confused.

It sounded like a doorbell or perhaps even the ringing of a phone to introduce an ad read character.

But in fact, it's not an ad read character.

It's an exciting new ad read prop, my hand chimes.