So can you help us understand how those two revolutions related to one another?

Yeah, well, my PhD thesis, which was about 900 and something pages, was about the contradictions between the neoliberal policies and the Treaty of Waitangi policies of the fourth Labour government and the role of colonial law in mediating that contradiction in the interest of the colonial capitalist state.

So...

We have to see the convergence of two actually quite distinct political moments in that contradiction.

One of them was the international development of Thatcherism and Reaganism and what became the kind of neoliberal project here as a backlash in part against Muldoon.

So you had that.

And then you had the activism from Māori from the late 60s through the 70s, the early 80s to 84, when you have the likelihood of a Labour government being elected.

And some of that limitation is our own imaginations and our own kind of the institutions and the organizations that we build as part of this kind of new te tiriti affirming energy that we talked about right at the start of the conversation.

But when it comes to Aotearoa, what do each of you think was the relationship between the colonization of New Zealand and the dynamic of capitalism in Britain?

Let me try and make it uncomplicated because often the contrast is made between a slave colony, a resource extraction colony and a settler colony.

And the presumption is that the settler colony is exporting the unwanted or the entrepreneurs to set up home away from home in the settler colony.

But the story is a lot less straightforward than that.

And as Matthew is also aware, a friend of his as well, Catherine Coman's work on financialization of colonization of Aotearoa showed the incredibly important role that speculators played in Britain.

and their relationship to the colonial office and their relationship to what became the settler government here.

In a way that runs parallels to today, the state capitalist relationship was very intimate.

Jane, could you help us understand the the processes by which many Māori came to be integrated into the capitalist economy during the decades after Te Tiriti o Waitangi?

What are you hearing? Traitorous, I think, was what David Seymour said.

Yeah, well, it's election time and even when it's not election time.

The history of the complaint is actually that it was a decision made by the Dutch organisation, which was also involved with a similar enforcement involving Korea in terms of labour standards, because there's a parallel provision in that chapter in relation to labour standards.

And they have been told repeatedly by the European Union that this is really meaningful.

So for them, this was a test case.

And to use words from them, New Zealand was such an egregious example where you'd had officials' advice telling them that this was likely to breach the agreements.

You'd had ministers saying, I don't care.

Jane, was this inevitable or is this a direct result of the coalition's slow reneging is what Catherine said?