What else do you feel like has been contributing to that positive shift? On so- on some of the topics, I should say, not on-

That was really lovely to hear that, that you learned from my work when you were coming up.

If it had just been me screaming into the abyss, nothing would've changed.

There was a huge range of work from a massive number of people, so even just on the advocacy side of it, Tarang Chawla has done amazing work on this as well.

We're sort of both working towards the same goals in very different ways.

I mean, Tarang was at that first meeting that I was at back in 2014 as well.

So that work has been done by a lot of people.

Wow

Jane, come in here and, uh, share your reflections on that comment.

Um, uh, Linda is so right about how important it is for- family members to correct that idea of secrecy.

Se- abuse exists in secrecy.

Secrecy and shame are two of the most dangerous components of abuse because it's what prevents children from, or adults, anybody who's being abused, from asking for help, from finding people who are safe, who can provide that help, is in that being compelled to keep it secret.

And also, just to say, um, to add to what Linda said about the importance of that extended family, during COVID, when everybody was in such a terrible state, I found this wonderful piece of research out of the US about one of the mo- strongest protective factors against depression in adolescence was the involvement of a grandmother.

That grandmothers are one of the most protective forces for children that exist because they're the only people apart from parents who the children's wellbeing matters so much to.

And I really think that that story about that grandmother saying, "No, we don't keep secrets here.

I mean, you're a researcher in this field, but how did it go for you?