I think maybe my question out of this is, what has helped you to discern? What has helped you to listen and grow and grow? evolve as you've followed your purpose?

I suppose a few things.

I think the one is a commitment to curiosity and unlearning and that is something that my husband has I suppose been very good at helping me with.

His passion is to unsettle people's thinking and it's how he makes his money in business and his job is to do that but not just to unsettle people but to do it in such a way as to help people to shift with the idea of moving forward and he does that for businesses he calls himself a futurist but the beauty of that is growth and he started to do that naturally from a very young age with those he loves and those who are around him and it's rubbed off on me, and it rubbed off from very, very early in our marriage and our relationship.

I don't know if you know the Enneagram, but he's in Enneagram 4, and he's very out there.

And so in our early years together, he was talking about postmodernism and the emerging church, and all the conservatives were having fits and frothies about postmodernism in those days.

And Graham Codrington was this... maverick and was just not to be touched in churches because he was postmodern.

Where have you seen that incredible God's kingdom coming to people who have previously been excluded, marginalized? What does that look like in your spaces?

How has that affected you?

Uh, it's been devastating.

It- it's meant that my children lost out on relationships that they, they could have benefited from.

Um, it's meant that I've lost out on relationships.

My husband has.

It, it's devastating.

Um, and it's also made me wonder if I could have done more and whether I have been a hypocrite because I have said that I stand for love, and I have, in inverted commas, given up.

How do you reconcile biblical texts that are traditionally interpreted as condemning LGBTQ+ relationships with your theology of inclusion?