How, how do we account for such a long duration from the founding all the way up to the Revolutionary War of this being a hotbed of the gospel and producing phenomenal movements, and then being precisely the opposite at this time?

I mean, that's a great question, and like you, I've, I've struggled with trying to understand it all my life.

I would, uh, in college, uh, I remember flying home, um, or I should say flying back to Connecticut, uh, and may- maybe having visited somewhere like the Midwest or the South, and feeling as the plane descended, just the spiritual heaviness return, because other parts of the country were still, as you say- basking in the, in the light of the Bible Belt or, or of the Gospel.

Uh, I am unwilling to say that it's inevit- that it's in- inevitable.

Um, I think it is the result of sin.

I think it is the result of God's providence, u- using, uh, using his providence to sift and to sort the wheat from the tares.

That having been said, it, I think we're asking the same question that was asked in the parable when, when Jesus, you know, talks about, uh, sowing good seed, and the, the slaves come back and say, "They're weeds," and, "Who, who's done this? You sowed good seed, master." And, and the master says, "An, an enemy has done this." And that's ...

What would you-

And do you want to describe that exchange for us a little bit? Because that's a backdrop for discussing what you want to really talk about.

That's right.

So, yeah, I mean, this was an exchange of letters to the editor in a campus newspaper called the Yale Herald.

And when I matriculated at Yale in 1991, there was something called the Freshman Assembly.

I believe they still have a Freshman Assembly.

And it was one of two times where they gathered the whole class, the second time being at the baccalaureate service at graduation, both of which were explicitly religious, though even by 1991, it was hardly religious.

Christian or even particularly religious.

But if you were to talk to somebody for whom this is brand new, what would you say to them to get started? What are some steps?

And do you want to describe that exchange for us a little bit? Because that's a backdrop for discussing what you want to really talk about.

That's right.

So, yeah, I mean, this was an exchange of letters to the editor in a campus newspaper called the Yale Herald.

And when I matriculated at Yale in 1991, there was something called the Freshman Assembly.

I believe they still have a Freshman Assembly.

And it was one of two times where they gathered the whole class, the second time being at the baccalaureate service at graduation, both of which were explicitly religious, though even by 1991, it was hardly religious.

Christian or even particularly religious.

But if you were to talk to somebody who's for whom this is brand new, what would you say to them to get started? What are some steps?

Now he runs the place, trying to balance tradition with the need to change.

Uh, but I think I quickly realized how special and how amazing this place is and what it means to so many people, where, you know, I, I changed the bathrooms to make them bigger and more accommodating, and that was met with anguish.

Right?

[laughs]

I think any sort of change is met with skepticism at a place like Katz's Deli that has so much history in it and means so much to people.

It's more than just food, right? There's nostalgia and an atmosphere component to that experience.