Do, do you think that if you had been allowed to continue doing that second stage deep AI analysis that you wanted to do on the Capella data, do you think that by now we might have had an answer on just what the phenomenon is?

We're 16 years later.

There has been no continuing investigation.

When, when the funding was stopped after two years, the, the people on our team that we had trained in understanding the structure of the data that we were looking for were let go on two-week notice.

Okay? They're gone.

Uh, I know some of them.

I know where they went.

W- what's going on, sir? You, you, you probably more than anyone know the, know the answer to that question.

Does anybody know for sure what, what they are?

Um, I ...

You're touching on something that concerns, concerns me and I want to hear, you know, what, what you think about that.

Um, y- you know, if, suppose we disclose, uh, that we have biologics.

We, we show ...

And I think a- at this point, they are looking at slides of tissue that, uh, w- we've had for, you know, 30 years or more, that, uh, uh, there, there are, uh, I believe, uh, but I'm not breaching any great secret because I've, I have not been cleared for any of that.

But I, I certainly trust the people who say that there are bodies that have been recovered.

Uh, and-

So do you think perception has changed? Are people more open to official or formal disclosure than they were, say, when you got started in this?

Oh, yes, yes.

Well, you know, for many years, this was, well, not only was there skepticism, but the witnesses were harmed in their perfections.

They were, you know, viewed as crazy people or people interested in in strange things.

And the stigma was It was terrible because it discouraged many people from reporting what they had seen.

I recently published a case that went back to the late 60s when I was working with Dr.

And this was a case reported by one man who was in his car with his family.

So should we still be skeptical, Jacques, from any studies that are done in academia? Let's say you.

Do you think it is possible, uh, or do you, are you concerned that it is possible that this ph- phenomenon is so complex and whatever is behind this is so much more intelligent than we are as humans, that, uh, not only haven't we figured it out, we're incapable of figuring it out?

That was a subject that I often got into with M.A. Michel.

Uh, you, you may have seen that, that name in what I wrote.

M.A. Michel was a, a French philosopher who's no longer with us unfortunately.

But he was really my initial inspiration, his books, uh, to, to, to get-- to delve seriously into that.

Uh, I kept telling him, "Look, uh, you know, science has never seriously looked at this.

And Project Blue Book and the Air Force and so on, that was just the military trying to understand, you know, whether there was a threat or not.

Right

Mm

...

so this, uh, these are humanoids.

They breathe the air.

They-- we can read the expressions in their eyes and so on.

Those are not...

They may be aliens in some way, but uh, there, there is a higher level of entity that according to Gilbert.

So after all these years of your investigation, what do you now believe is the most important question about the phenomenon that researchers are still failing to ask?

[chuckles]

So that-- so I know what it can do at that level, okay? We've gone two levels up from there now, okay? Uh, which is everybody in the field is amazed at the way it has...

the way it's capable of evolving with the data it's given, okay? And, and ask profound questions that we didn't think of by looking at the data.

So that's the level where we are now.

And, uh, the, the, the question is, you know, what else could it do? And I've...

So, you know, again, my, my degree was many years ago.

The-- But that's where everything comes from.

Yeah

Really?

So, uh, when, um, uh, uh, so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI.

W- he wanted to, he was, he had never been in a scientific institution where it's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else.

So he wanted to know, uh, uh, uh, he saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a strict scientific, rational way.

Uh, so he wa- I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to.

And I, I, I told him, "Do, do you know how a computer finds data? You know, you have a computer, a machine full of, you know, chips.

How does it deal with the real world?" And he said, "I have no idea.

Yes.