Is she right? Have men stayed quiet on this one? What's the chat like around where your social groups lie?

Yeah, I honestly can't say that this is permeated into any of my mates' group chats, unfortunately.

I think Florence Pugh is right.

I think that this is something that men need to be taking far more seriously.

I think...

The reason that we don't is that, I mean, we as a collective don't take it more seriously and aren't, you know, taken to the streets and doing something about this is because ultimately we, from the earliest ages, are taught to perform masculinity for each other and then we reinforce that to each other.

And these kind of cases are an example of performing, you know, a flawed, incredibly flawed view of what masculinity is to each other.

And what does responsibility look like, do you think?

said a lot of flighty theories of goodness.

No, I think definitely I agree.

And I think that it's important to find your community in that, that has similar values and goals that you do.

Also people that can challenge you as well and challenge your activism and discuss theories of change and stuff like that.

But if you go it alone, which I've probably have like done a few too many times myself and burnt out, it's like you have to find your people and focus on what what's achievable, but also have big...

Have big lofty goals as well.

Like I think you can have both.

have Tim Tams.

And it was a significant moment for you because there was a profound falling apart.

Mm-hmm.

A- an unraveling over time.

Yeah, during COVID, I think...

The way that I describe it in the book is that I'd started a creative business when I was quite young.

I was about 22, and I'd been running that, you know, working kind of around the clock as a young business person to just say yes to everything, every economic opportunity that came our way.

Uh, and, and that business had built to about five, six people on staff when COVID rolled around.

And we've, we've long been a leader in solar.

What are some of the big things that you would love people to take away within those first couple chapters especially?

Yeah, I think, like, I, I start the book talking about the housing market and what has changed since, like, kinda the post-war boom period and where there was everyone kinda came back from World War II, and they'd been through, like, the economic downturn between the two world wars, and there was a much greater sense of collective strength.

The only way that everyone survived, like, a massive world war is by banding together, and that kind of continued on for decades after the W- World War II.

So that was building public housing.

It was just having a really high tax rate on, on super high earners that was then invested into community and into infrastructure.

And, like, a lot of the things that we benefit from today, like gutters, are, are things that came from the post-war boom of just, like, people realizing that it was a good thing to pool resources and, and make basic infrastructure like that.

And then along came, like, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher and this idea of neoliberalism, and it really took that collective strength and made it to an individual one, and, you know, f- figure out your own shit first.... before you worry about community.

What are some things that you think people can take away to keep that positivity going?