Should they not be pushing education harder front and centre in this election campaign? I

mean, I think from National's perspective, absolutely.

I mean, you know, just look at some of the response today to the reading, writing, math stuff.

And Eric is the MVP.

Yeah, I mean, she, and, you know, it is interesting, like Labour, you think about the things they, they were, they came out very strongly against the cell phone ban, for example.

And look, you know, some people might say, well, that's a really minor policy, but it's a policy that didn't cost anything, that everyone looks at it now and goes, well, obviously that makes total sense.

Total sense.

It just seems way fishier, doesn't it?

Mm.

And the thing with the minor parties is that they've, they've actually got lots of characters, so it can be quite entertaining.

Now, I don't wanna cast any aspersions on the leader of Labour and National, but some people-

I don't know where you politically align, but, but-

My thing is that I just think everyone's wrong, so I, my, I constantly...

The closer you are to politicians, the more you come to appreciate that everyone is wrong about stuff all the time, and that no one's right about everything.

What I want to know, Jack, have you got your big opening question locked down?

I've got my opening question locked down.

The thing is, yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's like some of the stuff is a bit, you know, it kind of follows a bit of a formula, right? So the way we've set it up for tonight, we have a few things that we have to hit.

So you've got to do, you know, you've got to mention where people can, you know, have their closed captioning and all that kind of thing.

And both the candidates, they want to know exactly what's happening for the top of the whole debate.

But here's the thing I reckon you guys can look out for tonight that you'll really appreciate, okay? We decided, since some people aren't feeling that enthusiastic about the election campaign, that I have to do my absolute best to try and gee the whole country up, get people engaged.

Is that your feeling as

They're all quick to talk about what everyone else is doing

wrong.

Well, one of the interesting things about this election is, again, if the polls are to be believed, then Opportunity is going to be the first party, well, is currently placed to be the first party to maybe get past 5% of the vote and get into Parliament.

And so lots of people have been trying to work out why are they doing so well in this election compared to previous elections.

And I reckon this could be part of it because everyone else is running against something.

And how pivotal is a leaders debate that's on tonight, do you think, to people actually making a permanent decision on which way they'll vote?

I think especially for these main leaders at the moment, given they're both really unpopular, it's a really critical moment in the campaign because if they were to slip even a couple of percentage points in the polls from where they are now between now and election day, that could be absolutely dire what we're going to do tonight too is we're going to have a whole massive group of undecided voters so people who haven't yet decided who they're going to vote for and we're going to be like asking them how they think it's going and get you know get their thoughts on the performances as well so that should give us a good steer

And with the latest debate on tonight, your topic is, how do we fix and create a better New Zealand Jack Tame?

It's very simple, New Zealand.

You have to channel Mitch.

Why would you channel Mitch? Well, if there's one thing Mitch knows...

It's mid-Canterbury.

And when I think about a prosperous part of New Zealand right now, I think a part of New Zealand that is absolutely crushing it when the rest of us are doing it tough.

I'll tell you this.

34 years I just I

You'll

never hear about Donald Trump in presidential politics ever again.

So, no, I mean, it's very difficult to predict where things are going.

I mean, one thing...

I sometimes look at media and hope that it might be, it might follow something like the revolution that has happened with food and that I think about where all of the processed food came out of the two coasts of the United States, right? There was this kind of, you know, 50 years ago we didn't have any processing in our foods and then slowly over time more and more food has been packeted and more and more numbers have been added as ingredients and things.

And those are the same places that are driving the kind of farm-to-table trends in the U.S. And all of the people who once upon a time, all the communities who once upon a time were all for the snackable processed stuff in the middle aisles at the supermarket are now the people driving the farm-to-table, totally organic, fresh is best trend.

And sometimes I wonder if the same thing will happen with media and that the same places, those coasts have driven this kind of social media revolution and digital revolution that has amplified division and intensified division a lot of the time.

Now, the song you've chosen, which I wasn't familiar with, although I've now listened to it, why do you love it?

So hey, that climate complaint, Jack, that does sound like it's actually quite damaging to us regardless of whether we prove ourselves here or not.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I suppose some people would look at it and say if we don't have anything to worry about, i.e., the policies of the last few years haven't, you know, been out of step with our very public climate commitments, then we shouldn't have anything to worry about.

One thing I noticed, uh, with the complaint is that they're not looking for the EU trade deal to be torn up.

They're simply looking for New Zealand to recommit to its, um, to its Paris commitments, as I understand it.

And of course, there's a massive problem with that, and the prime minister's been asked about it several times before.

In order to hit our Paris commitments as they stand-

... walk away four months does feel strange.

Yeah

Um, I want to be able to scrutinize the, the biggest decisions they've made and the, and the impact of those decisions, and to critique those.

But I also, my approach is just to listen.

So if I'm, if I'm trying to get them to talk about some of those trade-offs that are inherent in policymaking, then, uh, my attitude is to try and just get to a point where I can ...

It sounds so obvious, and I've said this, I've told this story 1,000 times before, but if you can, w- when the TV lights are sh- uh, are, are, are in your face, you have cameras moving around.

A TV studio's a profoundly, um, uh, unnatural environment.

There's no n- there's no natural light coming in.

Yeah

Hey, OK, Jack, have you read the Dirty Work book?

No, I haven't, but I've read the reports today and we've got a couple of copies, so I'm looking forward to getting into it.

OK, what are your thoughts? My thoughts are, from what I've seen so far, there does not appear to be a smoking gun.

I think a lot of the information that's presented in the book, from what I understand, was already either in the public domain or was sort of largely known by, you know, the kind of wonky Wellington set, in which I'll include myself.

I think in terms of influence on the election, from what I understand so far, I think it's very unlikely to have much influence on the election.

And it probably does that old thing where it reinforces the views of the opponents of the Taxpayers Union and fans of Nicky Hager.

And, you know, people kind of end up in their tribal positions.

I mean, Jack, like this just, I don't know how much further does this go? It feels like the never-ending story of the costs that keep building

Jack, do you think the National Party tax strategy is landing?

The tax criticism, you mean? Look, a bit.

But, I mean, honestly, I'm so tired of the tax chat from both sides.

Like, I think the Tamitha Paul presentation was out of line.

I think she should have corrected the record there or apologised.

And, you know, I think any time National MPs are suggesting that Labour... is introducing a land tax.

I think that's out of line as well.

Is it maybe just a little ham-fisted?

... climate targets

... and what they said, what they said was, was from, from my understanding, is what they said is, with the incredible increases in production that we're achieving on farm, we will be able to maintain production at our current levels theoretically while reducing herd numbers.

They didn't say we had to.

They just said this was a possibility, and in doing so, that would mean that other parts of our economy that also had quite intensive agrici- um, climate emissions would be able to continue their production, and this would be an easier way to reduce them while maintaining our-

Do you think, Jack, that Nick Blakeley should be allowed to resign for fibbing to the MPs?

I thought that was a fascinating interview you did with him.

So first of all, if he had not offered his resignation, I would have thought it was outrageous.

I also don't understand how someone can be the head of an organization like that, go into a select committee process, and not understand what the appropriate answer would be.

Mm

... to, to see all of the, the, the language in the report so far.

And, and clearly, um, this isn't just a recent failing of the organization.

This is a failing that has been repeated time and time and time again over years.

And, you know, i- i- in, in some respects, y- you know, it's pleasing to see, um, a- an organization that should be accountable to the public giving interviews.

That being said, if I was a family member of one of those people killed, I think it would be very hard to read today's report and not want to see some individuals, um, held personally responsible for, for the tragedy that occurred.

J- uh, Jack, he makes a very good point, doesn't he?

I, I just think it comes down to who do you believe will play chicken the longest when it comes to walking away from negotiations and potentially blowing up a government.

Oh

...

in the time since that last vote.

And, and honestly, some of them are really quite angry with, um, you know, components of his leadership.

So yeah.

I mean, I mean, y- y- I don't think anyone can say with certainty exactly what's gonna happen when they go into that meeting room this morning, but one thing I'd say is the damage is done either way, right? So, so, um, y- y- let's imagine for a moment that somehow he survives this.

So what we've got a prime minister who's fewer than 100 days from an election who's basically faced two major challenges to his leadership from his own colleagues.

Jack Tame, how risky is this for the National Party?

Jack, what do you think? Does he survive tomorrow or not?

Look, I, I don't know, but I think of the two options, it's l- it's less likely that he survives, and I have not been someone who's, um, been calling for him to go or, or has been picking that he would go before this, but I think there are a couple of factors at play.

Um, first of all, from, from the calls that I've had within the party, my understanding is that there are MPs who supported him last time who are angry and are really unhappy with his performance for the last couple of weeks, and that quite feasibly their position in supporting him has changed since the last vote of confidence.

I would also say that even if, even if tonight or tomorrow doesn't end up in a vote of confidence, a formal one, the mere fact that you are in a position with a quasi-second vote of confidence in your leadership-

Like Chris Hipkins

... performers...

Yeah.

Well, uh, arguably some of the, the, the, the strongest performers in terms of cabinet portfolios, um, this term, the likes of Chris Bishop, the likes of Erica Stanford, um, e- even the likes of Mark Mitchell, are also people who are pretty, pretty confident and, um, astute communicators.

How does this play for the government, do you think?

Yeah, I think it's a ...

I, I was expecting it.

I, I was really expecting it.

We, we are opening, or some of my family are opening a little place in Wellington at the moment, and the people looking for jobs, there's hundreds of them.

I was expecting it.

Young people are, are really disadvantaged, and they're almost in tears when they're asking for a job.

Which, which of the two narratives is gonna take hold in the next three months though, Jack? Is it the, geez, things are bad, or we're getting better?

You kind of have to have a bit of both.

Uh, yeah.

I'm, I'm, I'm open to arguments on the frigates.

I think you certainly need to have this autonomous capability, and a- if you're looking at things from a, a cost benefit perspective, um, and, I mean, we'll obviously wait and see what technology is ultimately chosen and how much they spend, but in terms of paying for buck, literally, um, in the case of drones, uh, these autonomous systems are just so much cheaper to operate than the big traditional, um, you know, y- warships and the like that we've used to, to defend our, um, e- exclusive economic zone.

So yeah, I think it's a bit of a no-brainer.

Anyone who has read the Defense Capability Plan would know that this has been signaled by the government, um, for, for some time now.

We do have, uh, companies in New Zealand like Siles that are clearly well-placed with this kind of technology to deliver us something.

There's regulatory risk up the wazoo here.

Jack, do you think that they should name that sex offender?

Uh, uh, there's one line in the reporting that gives me r- r- reason to pause.

So usually, I'm totally opposed to, to name suppression if, uh, the arguments that the judge has considered only consider the offender.

So I don't...

I'm not concerned at all about any negative impacts for the offender.

There is one line in the reporting that I think is worth considering, and that is that the judge said it could likely endanger the safety of certain family members who aren't accused of, of, um, any, of any crimes themselves.

So I don't know the details-

Mm.

Yes.

You know, like, I, I, I think in 20 years' time, um, or 30 years' time, uh, i- i- if y- if you're looking at any of the fiscal indicators, it seems highly unlikely that we are gonna be able to afford universal super, um, in, in its current form without some huge changes.

And I just think, like, personally speaking, I'm quite aggressive about, um, saving for my retirement because I don't have a great sense of faith that whatever government of the day isn't gonna take away universal as it is.

And, um, and I think we need to take some responsibility for it.

But I, but like I said, I just think it's a yes and.

And, and the only way to solve this long-term problem is by giving people a bit of a carrot and a stick.

So maybe, maybe the stick is something like compulsion, but then give them some incentives as well.

Sure

How do you feel, Jack, about the general policy?

I mean...

Yeah, I think there are a couple of key questions around it.

I mean, at the moment, the National Land Transport Fund is massively oversubscribed.

So it's supposed to be a user-paid system.

The stuff that we pay through excise taxes, through road user charges, through registrations, goes into the fund, which we then use to fund... roads, public transport and the like.

At the moment, we're not bringing in nearly enough money going into the future in order to pay for the projects we want to do.

But I found it amazing, Jack, that it's taken the powers that be so long to actually make that place self-sufficient.

How did you feel about that, Jack?

Well, I think the fact that he supports amalgamation in principle changes the calculus a little bit.

If he'd come out and said this is a totally unrealistic deadline and also I'm totally against amalgamation, I think it would carry a different weight.

But the fact that he's been a relatively stabilising force in the capital, at least from my vantage point so far, given it is a relatively stable short deadline I think by most people's standards although some councils of course have seen this coming and the mere fact that he says that if a vote were held today he would support amalgamation I think meaningfully kind of changes the equation.

It is a short amount of time for councils to get their proposals in.

I think there is a lot of merit towards some amalgamation in different parts of the country but if you want to have an enduring amalgamation and systems that actually work I think it's a balance between acting with the swiftness that local government requires in the reform space, whilst also making sure that you make the kind of changes that are going to endure and be stable over the long term.

So Jack, what do you reckon? If Auckland Super City has proven that we don't get the financial benefits, should we just carry on with this or not?

Well, I think when it comes to local government, there needs to be significant reform in the revenue space.

Jack, right call to leave the OCR at 2.25?

Oh, do you know, I reckon, I reckon I would have hiked it, and I- I'm definitely angling for a, um, spot on the MPC once my, um, broadcasting career comes to an end.

But I reckon, I mean, we've got a single mandate for the Reserve Bank.

Uh, I, despite all of the bluster and noise from Donald Trump, I don't feel particularly confident that the Strait of Hormuz is gonna be opening any time soon.

I think the inflation from the petrochemicals and, um, fertilizer looks extremely likely to continue.

Yeah

...

in the economy too, but I just can't help but think that, uh, uh, for all of the, whether it was cutting for, um, or whether it was hiking after the, after COVID and then cutting at the end of it, the Reserve Bank was too slow to move.

Mm.

Second of all, um, there just haven't been major capital gains on property for years now, and I think that- If we were at a time when people were seeing 5 or 6% gains every year, it would be a different political environment.

But we're not seeing that right now, so I think there's li- likely to be less opposition than there would've been a few years ago.

Which is not to say there won't be opposition, I just think there's likely to be less.

Do you feel this, this intensity about it?

Uh, well, I mean, I, I don't like it.

My rates feel incredibly high at the moment, and I've looked at the, the forward projections for, you know, relatively s- smaller rates cuts in the, in the years to come.

I mean, it's w- I've been in the Karangahape Station, which is, like, one of the cathedral-like stations, to use Mayor Brown's-

Jack, what do you think?

I think we have a structural deficit and a government that came to power promising to improve our fiscal situation.

Ultimately, they have borrowed more money than they said they would borrow.

Ultimately, they have pushed out their path to surplus a couple of years.

They even changed the accounting measure by which they record whether or not they're getting to surplus.

So I think if you are to compare their position today with the position they promised we would be in when they, uh, were about to come to power, they are, they are pretty distinct.

That being said, it would be unreasonable for any of us to suggest that the state of the world doesn't require some pretty serious thinking.

Jack, what do you make of the 45% increase from Waitaki?

We're in the negatives, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the outward migration surge of the last few years has kind of defied everything we've had in the past.

There have been lots of times in the past where Kiwis have moved overseas and lots of Kiwis have moved to Australia.

But what's been interesting over the last couple of years is we haven't had the same number of New Zealand citizens coming back.

So we have had migrants coming into the country, but we haven't had the same number of New Zealand citizens moving back.

And that, for some people, is the big concerning thing.

She's like, I

Jack, how do you feel about this test?

I thought it was really interesting that in your first question, the Minister answered by talking about us, saying it was time for us to be proud about who we are in New Zealand.

It's time for us.

to be proud about our values.

I mean, I'm yet to be convinced of the utility of the test.

If there are 20 questions and they're all pretty obvious stuff about rights and freedom, I would have thought that from any prospective migrants or citizen in New Zealand who's spent enough time here, they're either going to know these like the back of their hand or, which isn't necessarily filtering people out, and even if they don't personally believe in, say, the equality of men and women, they're probably going to know enough to know what to answer in that situation.

I also think it'll be interesting to see what the questions are when we have a bit more detail because I would have thought that there's a potential for at least some of them to be perceived as having a political bent and then it's going to end up being a whole you-know-what storm in the political realm.

now jack the scrapping of the bsa does it fill you with happiness or dread