I think that occasionally, one of them, without the other one kind of realizing, sort of slightly puts an olive branch out there, and it's pushed away without the other one realizing that it was even offered.

Don't forget, like...

Self-knowledge is not a big trait of the Victorian mercantile class.

Like, no one's doing any therapy.

Like, it's just kill or be killed.

And so they just don't have the tools, really.

So in a way, it's like for there to be a kind of real rapprochement, I think, well, certainly in James's case, it requires him to be a completely, a person who he just isn't.

So what can viewers expect from Series 2 of The Four Sides? Does it feel bigger, louder, or different to Series 1?

How has your friendship changed since the time, uh, you first met?

Oh my God, I mean, s- look, I mean, when we first worked, we were idiot children really, and behaved accordingly.

You know, we're parents.

We're obviously much older.

We've had the incredible good fortune to continue working in this benighted profession.

I think we have a, a modicum of perspective that I, we certainly didn't have back then.

And I think also, and this sort of slightly plays into, you know, the playing of brothers in the show, it's quite an English thing that if you're constantly mocking someone, that's often a, a real to- form of endearment.

Has the experience of playing these damaging fathers changed the way you approach parenting your real-life sons? Has it made you reevaluate any of your own parenting philosophies or choices you would make?

So it must have been a great amount of fun.

It was really fun.

Once we'd all got over our initial... you know terror imposter syndrome like you know like you're suddenly in the middle of this thing and you're not wrong it was relative to i mean we're looking back on it it was the most low budget lo-fi thing you can imagine and to like your right to have clocked the i mean the shaky camera work thing was very much a a sort of trademark of the show but the truth is They did it for a reason of expediency.

It wasn't some grand aesthetic choice that was meant to kind of, you know, crank up the kind of verite dials.

It was simply this, which is that the average TV show shoots probably...

On a really good day, like six pages of dialogue a day, probably more in the four to five range, right? Takes time.

You know, you've got to light, you've got to move the cameras.

What was your experience working on that film like? And was it kind of your Hollywood break? Do you consider it like your Hollywood break? Oh, 100%.

And so we're interested about that transformation from doing all those podcasts and finding different ways of monetizing them and doing pretty well to sort of s- suddenly, you've had this kind of video transformation, haven't you, which is pretty recent, isn't it?

Yes.

So, initially, we were very audio focused, and that's because we had no investment when we started.

We were a very low cost model.

Essentially, it was myself, it was Tony, one producer in the office, coming up with ideas for shows and making them at very low cost.

And therefore, audio you can recreate, you know, this is, this is sort of 20- 2022 that we're talking about now.

You can recreate studio quality or as- as good enough as- a- as most people wouldn't know the difference very cheaply with, you know, less than 100 pounds worth of kit.

And so when you launch new things, you get incredibly big names to do them, don't you? So tell us a little bit about how that works, about the business model, 'cause I guess publishers might blanch at doing what I imagine you do, which is really strongly incentivize those presenters to be in the commercial success of what's going on.Tell us about how that works 'cause I'm, you know, I ima- I imagine the enthusiasm with which they read out those presenter ads suggests that they're, you know, incentivized well to do so.