Looking up or down.

Something that encapsulates both would be, it's this idea called the holarchy, and it's something that's been coming back more and more to the point where it probably comes to mind every day at this point, which is, you know, we've got this picture of, that we grew up with called hierarchy, which is this triangle, and this came from the days of sun worship because we believed, you know, before we'd left the planet and we hadn't really had a look around too much to see where we are.

All we had is like, okay, we're living here on this flat plane, and we look up and we see this sun at the top.

So the sun was basically God, and then underneath the sun was the king, underneath the king was the lords and ladies, underneath them was the merchants or the soldiers and the...

Right.

And this is still very fashionable.

Um, but what I love is this idea of in- the holarchy, which is instead of a triangle, it's what we actually see when we zoom out from Earth, is it's circles within circles within circles.

If there is something that feels important for you to, to connect us with, even in terms of, um, yeah, how do we do that in a modern world where, where we have access to most of the time is technology or construction, so not really nature-wise, although New Zealand is a great example of the amount of nature that is available.