What did you see that shocked you the most, particularly for people who haven't seen the programme yet?

I think there are two sets of layers to this.

First, I think what was particularly shocking was to see the appalling practice of firearms, of storage, of procurement, of guns, of ammunition, of holsters, many issues raised initially 2018, 2019 and 2020.

And the appalling capital murder of Detective Garda Colm Horkin in June 2020, defective holster raised as an issue in that case.

course he was shot with his own gun and previously a week previously another Garda injured again a defective holster at issue there and what we saw then was you know serious issues therefore raised by a whistleblower in the firearms unit around the way in which Garda management were storing were record keeping and were managing firearms and when when the whistle was blown by one individual and then a second individual around those practices.

I think the second shocking aspect was the treatment of those whistleblowers.

A protective disclosures unit was set up in the Gardaí in 2017, arising out of the treatment of Maurice McCabe, and to deal with that culture of silence that had been identified.

What do you want from him?

But why, why prepare for such a referendum when there has never been any opinion polling to suggest that such a referendum is warranted?

Well, there's a few wa- few reasons why it should be done.

First of all, there's a clear desire, and that's acknowledged in the Good Friday agreement, there's a clear desire, certainly the, on this side of the border, to see that unity referendum take place.

Secondly, we know from experience that prepara- preparatory steps are essential in order to build consensus in keeping with the principles of the Good Friday Agreement and that guiding star of consent.

So we should now be looking at a green paper, a white paper, a series of citizens' assemblies, exploring what, what shape a unity referendum would take.

What would people be asked to vote on? So that's crucial.

But there's one final reason why it's important that the Irish government would now start planning, Gavan, and that's because, of course, a Farage, a future, and it's a horrible prospect, but a Reform UK Farage government in Britain could land us in a referendum scenario without any time for preparation or planning.

... to get elected there

clear answer? Would you like the carbon tax to be deferred next month or not?

We want to see a focus on reducing costs for families.

We believe that there's a whole range of climate measures that need to be absolutely accelerated by government.

We've put forward a proposal for two and a half billion retrofitting funds.

And on the carbon tax.

And on the carbon tax.

This is just one measure in a whole package of measures that's needed now.

Do you accept that you have failed in that key task that you set yourself?

So, without evidence of burials on that site, why should the apartments not proceed?

Well, I'm looking at the text, and as you say, they said that first, but they then went on to say within the same sentence, "However, it is acknowledged that the history of burial, burials on these lands is incomplete due to the lack of records during the period of use of Bessborough as a mother and baby home." And of course, Bessborough was used for over 70 years as a mother and baby home.

19,000 mothers, women, and children passed through, and as Patricia Carey has just said so eloquently, that we know that, uh, 923 babies are recorded as having died.

Only 64 burial records have been found.

So, there's 859 babies and 19 mothers unaccounted for, and the Coimisiún Pleanála report acknowledges there is a potential for unrecorded burials being encountered.

And indeed, Justin, you know, one of the conditions that the, and again, in the same paragraph, uh, the commission, uh, decision says, "Should human remains be discovered, full forensic controls would be applied." Now, I described this, this condition in the Dáil yesterday as chilling because the Coimisiún Pleanála, therefore, is acknowledging, recognizing, that indeed there is potential for, as they put it, human remains-

This includes stopping works, securing the area, and notifying the Cork City Coroner immediately." So, does that not satisfy the concerns that you and, and others would have, that if, if there are, uh, remains discovered there, that the appropriate actions would then be taken?

Far from it, Justin.

Why not include Sinn Féin in this bid for cooperation on the Seanad election?

Well, in the first instance, I thought it was vital that we would try to come together, the three parties that share a commonality of vision and values, and indeed, with the Greens and the Social Democrats, uh, really, they share Labour's vision, Labour's values of equality, of solidarity, of fairness.

And I, what I wanted to do was to ensure that the three parties could come together and come forward with the idea of somebody who is a progressive, a woman, because, uh, one's unfortunate side effect of the elections is that we see, you know, the, the proportion of women in the Dáil has dropped below one quarter, dropped below 25%.

So I believe we should be able to choose somebody who could have the potential to gather a wide array of support from other parties.

And I do want to say, you know, Sarah, we were so pleased with our own results in the by-elections, with the wonderful Helen Ogbu in Galway West leading the left candidates there-

That won't be possible without Sinn Féin.

That's absolutely consistent with what Labour have always said and what I've always said, which is that in the first instance, we need those three parties of the center left, with the socialist, Social Democratic, and Green tradition to come together because we share a vision and values.

We in the Labour Party have never said that Sinn Féin is in, that is, is left in that way.

This means that the offer from the IDA will become, please come to Ireland and you can't define whether your employees are in your premises and if they aren't, we'll fine you.

Well, good morning, Anton, and thank you for inviting me on the programme.

And I think for many of your listeners stuck in cars in enormous tailbacks trying to get into Dublin from their own communities, I think this bill may have a resonance.

I think you're overstating it somewhat, however, but what it will do, and we are very much hoping, I should say, that the government will support it.

It is, and that colleagues from all parties will support it.

It's going to be debated in the Dáil tomorrow.

And to pay tribute to my colleagues, Deputies George Lawler, Marie Sherlock and Mark Wall from Dublin, from Labour for introducing it.

can diplomatically thread that needle?