You know, I'm interested to hear about the vibe in Detroit versus the vibe in the national media, how, how the city responded to you versus how the national media tried to paint you.

So the, from a city standpoint, we were, um...

How can I say it? We were, we were Motown.

You know, Are- Aretha Franklin, you know, Smokey Robinson, um, you know, The Dramatics.

You know, you name it, they was in the building.

Um, and not, not only that, uh, the way the city embraced us was we were tied directly to the music, and we were tied directly to the history that was of the city in terms of a rebellious spirit, a coming together, and not only a coming together, but really standing for each other.

And that's the one thing that, that you'll find with, with, with Detroit and with Michigan, like, when they, when they down with you, they down with you.

Which is something that's true that's also kinda rare, I think.

When did you know it was time for that bad boy persona to come along?

You know, being around, you know, you guys, you know, because we shared the same facility, football, basketball.

And basketball mentality, you know, was kind of cute, pretty, you know.

But the football mentality, you know, was like you hit and you get hit on every single play.

Right.

Being around you guys and then understanding the different mentality that you had to bring to the game.

And for us, as you said, we had got knocked down, kicked around so many times.

It's great to see

But his persona, he wanted to build a persona that was completely different once he walked out of that locker room.

Yeah.

And I think it all started when, if you remember, Max, they weren't paying guys in the league for rebounding.

Right.

Absolutely.

And Rodman turned rebounding into a show.

And he got paid for rebounding in defense.

I'm like, how did they get there?

Um, what was your reaction watching that game?

I, a- as a, as a basketball purist, right, I was, I was happy to see the, the, the Knicks come back and, and, and win the game.

I was terribly upset the way San Antonio played with a 29-point lead and lost.

Uh, so the, so the purist in me was like, how c- how could you continuously keep coming down, jacking up threes, missing them when you got a lead like this? You got the tallest guy in the league, and you won't put him under the basket and, and break momentum Get to the foul line, score a basket.

You know, so I, you know, I, I think all of us in the basketball community, we were ...

Not only were we shocked, but we were ...

You know, we felt some kind of way about, yeah, we wanted the, the Knicks, it was glorious, but I think we all felt some kind of way watching what we saw with San Antonio just blow a lead like that, an historical, you know, meltdown that we've never seen before in a game.

Okay.

[laughs]

Where you see where, uh, SGA likes to shoot from, uh, mid-range, uh, they have a double team trap set up for him at the elbow, so if he goes right, he's forced, uh, into, you know, a double team.

If he goes left, he's forced into a double team.

On the back line, they keep Wemby, uh, as a, as a rim protector, and then they have a smaller player in rotation shooting out to the corners.

That's why you see, uh, those corner threes right now that OKC, uh, is knocking down.

Those are the ones that they're giving up because they're taking the, the, the elbow shots or the mid-range shots away from SGA.

So tho- you know, it, it, it's similar to what we did with Jordan.

Can, you see a player trying to be like Dennis Rodman today?

[laughs]

... where you see where, uh, SGA likes to shoot from, uh, mid-range, uh, they have a double team trap set up for him at the elbow.

So if he goes right, he's forced, uh, into, you know, a double team.

If he goes left, he's forced into a double team.

On the back line, they keep Wemby, uh, as a, as a rim protector, and then they have a smaller player in rotation shooting out to the corners.

That's why you see, uh, those corner threes right now that OKC, uh, is knocking down.

Those are the ones that they're giving up because they're taking the, the, the elbow shots or the mid-range shots away from SGA.

Can you see a player trying to be like Dennis Rodman today?

[laughs]

... where you see where, uh, SGA likes to shoot from, uh, mid-range, uh, they have a double team trap set up for him at the elbow.

So if he goes right, he's forced, uh, into, you know, a double team.

If he goes left, he's forced into a double team.

On the back line, they keep Wemby, uh, as a, as a rim protector, and then they have a smaller player in rotation shooting out to the corners.

That's why you see, uh, those corner threes right now that OKC, uh, is knocking down.

Those are the ones that they're giving up, because they're taking the, the, the elbow shots or the mid-range shots away from SGA.

Can you see a player trying to be like Dennis Rodman today?

Yes.

Um, you know, the, the ...

I, I, I don't enjoy it as much only because strategically I just don't think, um, the strategy of the gameUh, that, that we were accustomed to seeing and playing really comes into play.

Uh, and, and what I mean by that is, uh, time and score, uh, taking good shots, good quality shots as opposed to taking bad shots where we...

This is a three-point shooting happy arear- era, but, you know, the majority of the time, uh, we're seeing missed shots.

We're not seeing made shots.

And if it, if they were making the threes, then it's like, oh, then the game is great.

Are there gonna have to be rule changes coming up because of how, you know, long and, and explosive everybody is?

Yes.

Um, you know, the, the...

I, I, I don't enjoy it as much only because strategically I just don't think, um, the strategy of the game, uh, that, that we were accustomed to seeing and playing really comes into play.

Uh, and, and what I mean by that is, uh, time and score, uh, taking good shots, good quality shots, as opposed to taking bad shots, where we...

This is a three-point shooting happy area, era, but, you know, the majority of the time, uh, we're seeing missed shots.

We're not seeing made shots.

And if it, if they were making the threes, then it's like, oh, then the game is great.

Are there gonna have to be rule changes coming up because of how, you know, long and, and explosive everybody is?

Mm

... 25-plus years of, uh, growth, players have made sacrifices.

Owners have made sacrifices.

But right now, the league is at a, a point where you can, you can grow.

You've, you've captured international basketball attention.

And to miss this opportunity right now with some type of lockout or setback or, or, or strike, I just think the players and the owners right now, they really need to get together at the bargaining table, get creative-

That's not even a question.

Yeah.

Hmm.

I called Magic Johnson.

Magic was on a plane.

They was shooting a commercial in Atlanta, him, Sam Jackson, everybody else.

We were staying in the Four Seasons Hotel.

We missed each other, right? Because he said he had to go, so he on the plane, right? I called him up.

Magic didn't mention Michael Jordan.

Mm.

The idea of everybody thinks about the analytics and what happens between the lines, but the truth of the matter is it's all about everything else.

Yeah, it truly is.

It's about the things that, that bring analytics to life.

You know, what, What allows you to have a successful play or to score two points or to have a successful defensive transition and a stop? The analytics only truly judges the end result.

But it never gives you the how and the why it happens.

It just gives you basically the finality of what happened.

And so what I always try to do is just really go back to the basics, break it down to the fundamentals of your personhood, your relationships, how you feel about each other, the trust that you build with your teammates, the trust you build with your coaches, that allows you to go out and implement those things out on the floor that we call a game plan.

How did you handle that though? I mean, the screening, was it all the time? Cool.

What was your favorite on the court moments in college? Was it, was it that championship?

championship?Uh, two favorites.

Um, the first favorite was, um, February 14th in Iowa, Mike Woodson's return, because my freshman year he had back surgery.

We were ranked number one, Woodson goes down, uh, Whitman goes down, Boucher goes down, and we like, you know, we faltering, right? Uh, Woodson comes back and that's his first game and it's in Iowa City.

And this is my freshman year, and my whole, my whole time now, you know, playing for Coach Knight, I'm waiting for this genius moment, right? I'm waiting for him to grab the clipboard, you know, and draw up some stuff, and...

But I ain't seen no clipboard in like, you know-

Mm-hmm.

He had back surgery, you know, he was coming back, you know.