What did we learn about, about America, about hosting, uh, about hosting these events, about how the World Cup is expanding to 64 teams and how many nations can really hold those events moving forward? I mean, what did we learn about the greed of FIFA, the, uh, politics, rules? What was your overall takeaway from these, you know, wonderful six weeks of soccer almost every single day?

Well, yeah, look, that, that's an important, great question.

I have a lot of answers to it.

I think there are some things that we learned.

There's some things that we were reminded of.

Uh, look, for the last couple of World Cups, we've gone into them with a lot of pessimism, you know, ahead of Qatar, ahead of Russia.

There's all sorts of frustrations about the politics of the tournament, about the human rights abuses, all this stuff.

Yes.

But you you aren't.

Yeah, I mean, I'll answer you.

I just want to first say thanks for involving me.

Adam can offer his own thanks.

Soccer Explains the World was a book I read probably a few years after it was published.

I was living in Hong Kong working my first journalism job.

And I read it then.

I'm curious, especially since you're all journalists, how changes in media and the rise of untraditional media have impacted the sport and the way in which we consume it.

But is there a cloud hanging over this, given, uh, the, um, political concerns for so many o- of these fans around the world seeing some of Trump's policies and also just the polarization that we're seeing as well?

Uh, that's absolutely right.

There is certainly quite a bit of gloom hanging over this World Cup.

The World Cup, as you said, it's the most beloved sporting event in the world.

It's this one showpiece event that attracts billions of followers, and it usually is...

You know, I think when the US hosted it in 1994, it was this incredibly, uh, exuberant, uh, amazing celebration of America and the arrival of soccer to a certain extent in the United States.

It was a very celebrated tournament.

So what actually is different this time around?

What do you mean by permanent leverage?

Well, you know, yes, and I think it's, it's very important to recognize that both sides are really spinning this as victories, uh, and the Iranians potentially have a more convincing case than Trump does.

Uh, by permanent leverage, I mean, look, for a long time when we've talked about the geopolitical conundrum that Iran represents, the focus has been on its desire to have this kind of ambiguity around its nuclear program.

It's-- we've talked about, uh, the, the fact that the Iranians want to maintain their capacity to potentially create a weapon, even though they say they don't, as their deterrent, as their sort of the way in which they will position themselves vis-à-vis their neighbors, vis-à-vis Israel, vis-à-vis the United States, that, you know, one of the ways that they can fend off all these potentially, you know, antagonistic parties is by having the possibility of, you know, racing for a nuclear weapon.

Now, what they have discovered, uh, in the course of this conflict over the last month is that there's another deterrent that they-- that's quite effective and perhaps even more effective than this kind of complicated process to, to achieve, uh, you know, some sort of nuclear capacity, uh, which is, oh, we can just close off this strait that is essential to global shipping and essential to [chuckles] the global economy.

And they did it.

And now they see they don't want to relinquish their capa-- their sort of control over it.

One, Ishaan, what happened to unconditional surrender? Did Trump try to redefine it?

One, Ishaan, what happened to unconditional surrender? Did Trump try to redefine it?

You know, [laughs] at a certain point, it's hard to keep up with all his proclamations and, and, uh, the kind of excesses of his rhetoric.

Uh, but absolutely, there has been no such thing as unconditional surrender.

There's also been no, you know, wipe out of Iranian civilization, uh, or, or whatever else Trump has threatened in recent days.

Uh, when it comes to who is in power, obviously, I think there's a degree of opa-opacity here.

Uh, we don't have full sense of, um, who's calling the shots.

Yes, they installed the son of Ali Khamenei, Mojtaba Khamenei, as the new supreme leader.

So where do things stand as you see them?

[gentle music] This week on The Political Scene from The New Yorker, I speak with foreign affairs journalist Eshan Tharoor about the fallout of the US and Israel's joint military operation against Iran.

The regime is i- in survival mode, lashing out in various ways.

There is still the possibility of major civil strife and unrest, and the emergence of some kind of domestic uprising, although the one thing Iran is very good at is quashing domestic uprisings.

But one of the crazier things about what happened over the weekend is that we saw this much broader war start to break out in the Middle East as Iran began responding to the strikes from Israel and the US by launching retaliatory strikes against its regional neighbors.

Yeah, it's quite astonishing.

Uh, I don't think anybody really thought that the Iranians would hit this wide arc of countries in their neighborhood the way they have, um, in such a kind of haphazard, relentless manner.

You know, we're talking about hundreds, uh, drone and missile strikes in the hundreds at this point on, uh, you know, every major country in the Gulf, um, targeting US assets, but also just kind of targeting anything.

Um, and it's quite unclear what, you know, where it's gonna stop.

Uh, and for the leaders of the Gulf, you know, these are US allies, many cases, in all cases, uh, rather wealthy monarchs with interesting ties to the Trump administration, um, this is a kind of worst-case scenario because it, it, you know, places like Dubai, which, uh, which is now shut down, places like Doha and Abu Dhabi and, you know, Kuwait and, uh, Kuwait City and Manama and Bahrain, the central image of these places that these governments have tried to project all these years is that they are kind of oases of stability, um, where expats can come and have the, uh, the best life they could possibly have, uh, where it's all prosperity and growth and security and stability and safety.

Um, and this kind of chaos is not supposed to happen in a Dubai.

And so I just have like no idea whether we're escalating or de-escalating.

Yeah

... is, is, is not even on the-- it's, it's, it's irrelevant because we're seeing this as an administration that, uh, first and foremost, the through line in everything that it does is, um, a kind of constant reminder to the rest of the world that it is unbound, that it is, its primacy is paramount, and that it can do, it, it, it is allowed to, to sh- set the terms as it sees fit.

And they have long agreed with the idea that they can reset the table when it comes to the Middle East.

What we're seeing right now is that the Middle East is the table.

And, uh, I mean, just in this day's, uh, actions, and of course, uh, worse may be to come soon, uh, tomorrow and into the early hours tonight.

But just in, in this day, I mean, the scenes we're seeing across the Gulf, um, debris and rocket strikes and drones hitting Bahrain and Kuwait and Doha and Dubai, um, this is pretty alarming.

Uh, and this is, this is really forcing very hard conversations and re- recalibrations, um, in the Arab world.

If you can talk about the significance of this, Ishan.

Yeah

... is, is, is not even on the...

It's, it's, it's irrelevant because we're seeing this as an administration that, uh, first and foremost, the through line in everything that it does is, um, a kind of constant reminder to the rest of the world that it is unbound, that it is, its primacy is paramount, and that it can do, it, it, it is allowed to, to set, set the terms as it sees fit.

And they have long agreed with the idea that they can reset the table when it comes to the Middle East.

What we're seeing right now is that the Middle East is the table.

And, uh, I mean, just in this day's, uh, actions, and of course, uh, worse may be to come soon, uh, tomorrow and into the early hours tonight.

But just in, in this day, I mean, the scenes we're seeing across the Gulf, um, debris and rocket strikes and drones hitting Bahrain and Kuwait and Doha and Dubai, um, this is pretty alarming.

If you can talk about the significance of this, Ishan.

Yeah

... is, is, is not even on the...

It's, it's, it's irrelevant because we're seeing this as an administration that, uh, first and foremost, the through line in everything that it does is, um, a kind of constant reminder to the rest of the world that it is unbound, that it is, its primacy is paramount, and that it can do, it, it, it is allowed to, to sh- set the terms as it sees fit.

And they have long agreed with the idea that they can reset the table when it comes to the Middle East.

What we're seeing right now is that the Middle East is the table.

And, uh, I mean, just in this day's, uh, actions, and of course, uh, worse may be to come soon, uh, tomorrow and into the early hours tonight.

But just in, in this day, I mean, the scenes we're seeing across the Gulf, um, debris and rocket strikes and drones hitting Bahrain and Kuwait and Doha and Dubai, um, this is pretty alarming.

If you can talk about the significance of this, Ishan.