What did you walk into? When did you realize, when did the penny drop that this was not just a conference against racism, but this was, this was something very, very different?

Well, let me just preface it by saying that when I first heard that there was going to be a world conference against racism in Durban in, in the late nine- ni- nineties when they first announced it, I agreed to this with anticipation, if not excitement.

This was to be the first world conference against racism of the 21st century.

This was to be the first international human rights conference of the 21st century in which anti-racism was an organizing theme.

And it was to take place in Durban, South Africa, uh, the birthplace of the anti-apartheid movement.

And as someone who had been, as at the time, had been arrested 20 years before, uh, in South Africa for my involvement in the anti-apartheid movement, returning at this point, uh, and to commemorate the dismantling of South African apartheid was something, as I said, I looked forward with anticipation and excitement.

I have to say that there were some warning signs that we weren't maybe paying attention to, and that is the, uh, UN conference was preceded by four regional conferences.

Is it just antisemitism? Is there something wrong with the education system? I mean, where-- If you had to put your finger on what is the problem at the source, what would you say it is?