Um, from your perspective, like why is this not like a, a new thing? Even though it's trendy right now, why do you think it's, feel it's not a new thing?

Um, I think, I think it's, uh, it's absolutely not a new thing.

I think the new aspect of it is that it's, um-M- more deliberate as a, instead of like happy accidents or like the, just the, the randomness that occurs with, with film and just like the nature of the medium, um, having these, you know, natural imperfections, which, you know, people embrace or don't, and that's been cyclical too.

Um, but um, yeah, I mean, I went to art school 2000 to 2004, and admittedly that's a situation in which you're not expected to produce professionally.

So I think it's probably different for someone who's trying to make money.

Um, but experimentation and trying th- and toy cameras, Holgas, Dianas, cross-processing, um, layering textures onto your negatives, photographers scratching their negatives on purpose to get all sorts of result, light painting.

Um, I mean, like, people were, uh, people were experimenting and trying things out since the very beginning, like you said, with the spirit photographs and, you know, the, the fairy photographs [laughs] and like, you know, from the very beginning it's been, um, s- more than just, like I said, a faithful representation.

I guess, um-