What was the moment that you sort of realized, hey, this fanatic approach towards driving towards success and progress might not be the thing that helps me to get where I need to be?

Yeah, I think.

When we think about, I don't really think about it as one moment, because I feel like there are many different moments that kind of compound on top of each other.

And I feel like I'm still kind of in it.

So my whole life, I was very motivated.

Like you said, I was very focused on achieving and having done a sport like swimming.

It's every every little piece counts.

Have you ever been in a situation yourself where you felt like I'm not going to let design be a lens to contribute to this or my design practice?

And then I'd love to hear how it evolved and what really inspired it.

Um, yeah.

So Design Shifts, I'm calling it a collaborative learning journey, and the project, it, it is exploring a better future for and through design.

And I chose that very intentionally, the idea of for and through.

So I think there is a better future for design, how we design our practice, who we design for, and also how design can enable a better future.

I don't think design will change the world.

I think it's one of many vehicles that can actually, we can use in order to create a better future.

Yeah.