And so I wanted to talk to you about what happens on your side with the men, if anything, when something like this happens because we see the narratives online, which is like, "Men, speak up," or, "Why aren't men doing this?" But then there still seems to be the competing narrative a- also of like, "Men, sit down and shut up and just listen." And so within the circles that you gather and the people that you speak to, what seems to happen when a new level of escalation of violence comes to the surface?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, I can say that, I mean, in the circles that I'm in, that, that was certainly a, a key conversation point that came up, and, and really a question, yeah, of how do, how do men, how do we contend with that? And, um, at the same time, there was another, uh, somewhat prominent, uh, a men's coach that I, I'm loosely connected to online, that, uh, he posted something, uh, when this surge of, of outrage, of horror was happening, which to me at least on my feed was everything, [laughs] right? Every post was about this.

And, uh, he posted something that was very, i- again, he's more in the right, right-wing crowd.

Um, and so he posted something that was really, I don't know, satirical, but also a kind of, um, take on what feminism is, and it's really about women just really want men and they don't want to admit it or something.

Like, it was just a very obtuse kind of, it felt like deliberately kind of offensive thing, and I actually wrote him and I was like, "What? How could you possibly post this at this moment whe- in the midst of what this surge is around, you know, this rape academy and stuff?" And his response was actually like, "What do you mean? I- that's not, it's not my reality." In the sense of I, I s- I began, and then I had that sense of perhaps, again, in his, um, feed and in his bubble curated by algorithms and, you know, the, the ecosystem he's part of, maybe it wasn't at all part of the conversation.

How do you see men's work as still important, and also just what is the content of what you're doing with men?

Mm

...

the show beneath him.

And so I think for these men, the, the, you say the diagnosis of yes, like they're being invited into a kind of exploitative relationship, um, capitalism, uh, yes.

Uh, and the, the response to that tends to be within the manosphere, the problem is women, right? Or the problem, problem is feminism, right? The problem is, uh, you know, they wanna keep you weak, or the they or the Satanists at the top or whoever it is, uh, rather than seeing actually they're just doubling down on the very system that's exploiting them.

They're just trying to get better at exploiting others, uh, as a way of, again, climbing the heap.

And so again, I, I think the deep grief there is actually that there, where, where's that other cosmology of meaning and purpose that rightly is the f- is the role and the function of a healthy culture, um, to gather these boys up and invite them into, generally through some kind of rite of passage, some kind of initiatory journey, where they're basically brought into the mysteries of that understanding, of that particular cultural way to say, "Hey, this is what, uh, it means to be a man in this culture.

What would most surprise me about what's going on for men, what's bringing them to the work with you, and what's unfolding for them? What would it be that for me or for other women that would be like, "Wow, I had no idea that's what's going on for many men when it comes to their sexuality"?