So the question is, does welfare finance rearmament become self-defeating? Do governments fall largely because of the political choices they're making on defence before 2035 arrives?

I think there's a well-worn political orthodoxy in feeling that you can't spend more on something, especially when you're talking about the kind of amounts that we're talking about here, without cutting something else.

And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I think it's worth thinking about.

In my journalistic career, which is now a bit longer than I like to think about, but about 18 years, we've had two once-in-a-lifetime crises, and they both required oodles of money to be borrowed.

And one was the financial crisis, which required the bailout of the banks so that on a Monday morning in 2000...

I can't remember what, but was it 2007, 2008, you could access the cash machine.

It was...

Is that a real constraint or is it political framing, Howard?