How did you see that conversation framed tonight, Holly Bennett?

Poorly.

Co-governance is not a Māori issue, it's a Crown issue.

It's one of the tools that the Crown has used to try to atone for things it has done in the past.

I'm sick of Māori being fodder for people.

when it's actually the Crown that needs to accept that it has done things to hurt its own people only because they have whakapapa Māori, and that is their job to restore that.

That is what equity seeks to do.

And I wonder whether you think that anything in that debate would have meaningfully moved the dial for that many people.

that's key, isn't it?

Correct.

Which is why when we look at this stuff, we need to first understand what it is that we're actually looking at to understand the why.

And then from there, decide what the steps are that we take.

And so...

Often this conversation gets a little bit lost because people know something's a little bit weird and off, but then the answer is to legislate.

And I would argue the answer is not to legislate.

Who turned up and what was discussed?

No.

Okay, okay, so...

Pokemon released a new collection last week.

It was really, really hyped up.

Shops sold out within the first sort of hour, and they printed a lot of the cards, but still people are struggling to get their hands on.

And now there is this interesting undertone happening where people are buying it and then doubling or tripling the prices, so they're out of reach.

And for something that's quite an enjoyable hobby and definitely made more towards kids or big kids like myself, There's this profit maximization element that's happening to it, and it's sort of making it out of reach for people who...

Trade and exchange.

And then seven years later, you're going, hey, we probably need some standards.

So I am really proud of what the work my team and I did to launch lobbyist.nz.

It is just a nod towards being more transparent about the way we operate and what that looks like.

I liken it to the fact that lawyers have a code of conduct that they have to adhere to.

And for a lawyer, your first obligation is to the court.

It's not actually to your client, it's to the court.

That means that you're not supposed to be lying to judges.

Map out a little bit of what a business owner could do for themselves from going, ah, crap, the whatever industry that I'm part of is doing this and I want it this way.

Where did the idea for the piece kind of come from? Because you write a bit about sort of first-hand experiences that you've had where you've kind of been challenged about this, right?

Yes.

So I'll take you back to 2023.

This is where it first sort of came to the fore, especially as somebody who runs my own firm that is called Afi, so it's got a Māori name.

And I was on a public consultation session talking about lobbying and one of the karaua, so one of the elders on the call said, I don't know why any of our people, so those were whakapapa Māori, would want to be a lobbyist.

And his point was that...

We don't traditionally do lobbying in how it's perceived and how it's seen, which is dark alleyways, a pocketbook, a roll of decks, contacts, so on and so forth, which goes to the heart of how people see lobbyists in itself.

They've brought in Santa Claus to explain to the turkeys why actually Christmas is great.