I wonder what your sense is of the health of the United Nations at the moment.

The UN has been under serious assault.

People haven't been paying their money.

We know there's one particularly large country that hasn't been paying its money.

It came up with about $700 million last week.

This is the United States.

But I think they owed about $4 billion, so there's a way to go.

Tell us what you mean by that and tell us how small nations can make a difference at a time when we are spending so much time thinking about this geopolitical rivalry between China and the United States.

I wonder what your sense is of the health of the United Nations at the moment.

The UN has been under serious assault.

People haven't been paying their money.

We know there's one particularly large country that hasn't been paying its money.

It came up with about 700 million last week.

This is the United States.

But I think they owed about 4 billion.

Tell us what you mean by that and tell us how small nations can make a difference at a time when we are spending so much time thinking about this geopolitical rivalry between China and the United States.

And what do you think accounts for that?

So I think the plans that many had were not flexible, adaptive, or innovative enough.

If I look at my own country, for example, we had done some things in the wake of SARS.

There was never any confirmed case of SARS in New Zealand.

There was one suspected one.

But nonetheless, back in the early 2000s, my government decided that we weren't really prepared for such an event.

And we passed purpose-ready legislation, the Epidemic Preparedness or Response Act or whatever, which proved to be extremely helpful when eventually the government acted in New Zealand.

Catholic, I did not think that I would be cheering for the American Pope as the savior of our times, but yeah.

I, I imagine there's no silver bullet, but-

Hmm.

Well, you, you build coalitions, uh, of, for action.

Uh, for example, in the trade sphere, the World Trade Organization has not been able to conclude [laughs] a round since it was called the General Agreement on Trades and Tariffs, going back to the Uruguay ri- round of what must be coming close to three decades or more ago.

Uh, so what, what do you do? Uh, the, the rules that the WTO has are increasingly covering a diminishing, uh, area of world trade in goods and services, just can't keep up.

Uh, the, uh, appellate structures for those who have complaints about another country's trade practices are in disarray, uh, because, uh, you know, appointment of new judges to the final court was, was blocked.

But the US, which has been very disruptive in the world of trade, uh, these, these r- recent years, represents only 13% of world trade.

Right.

Uh, but can we begin with the day itself? What do you remember of it?

What I remember, John, is being in the, uh, the lounge at Hong Kong Airport and seeing these images coming through on the TV screen, no sound, of what appeared to be, uh, smoke coming out of skyscrapers.

We had no idea what was going on, where was this, what was happening.

Got on the next flight.

And then on the next flight, I was contacted directly, as I recall, by Mark Prebble, who was head of Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, and he explained what had happened.

Jim Anderton was Deputy Prime Minister and had, you know, taken, taken command of issuing statements for the government.

So I said, "Keep me posted." Uh, I landed in Rome.

Mm.

Uh, but can we begin with the day itself? What do you remember of it?

What I remember, John, is being in the, uh, the lounge at Hong Kong Airport and seeing these images coming through on the TV screen, no sound, of what appeared to be, uh, smoke coming out of skyscrapers.

We had no idea what was going on, where was this, what was happening.

Got on the next flight.

And then on the next flight, I was contacted directly, as I recall, by Mark Pribble, who was head of Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, and he explained what had happened.

Jim Anderton was Deputy Prime Minister and had, you know, taken, taken command of issuing statements for the government.

So I said, "Keep me posted." Uh, I landed in Rome.

Mm.

Preach

Because, you know, [laughs] we weren't stupid.

We knew there was no intelligence credibly supporting, um, the allegations that Iran had weapons of mass destruction.

We saw no legal basis for the war.

Uh, and it, it then inflicted misery on the entire Iraqi population, and millions died, not only from, uh, conflict, but also from, frankly, poverty, hunger, rundown of services-

Yeah.

Uh, so no, it, it, it has been a failure and we need to, uh, reflect on, you know, what, what drives terrorism, you know, m- address more the factors that are un- underlying, uh, these horrific, um, conflicts ar- ar- around the world.

It's not ju- just as simple as shooting people, right? Because behind them, there's another generation of people with, with a grievance, um-

There was something about this, wasn't there, that...

M- misogyny takes different forms.

So I was always, uh, attacked because I, I didn't have children.

You know, "How would she know what it's like to bring up a family?" And then Jacinda was attacked because she was a younger woman and, and had a child.

So misogyny will always find a way to, to target you.

But I think she was targeted at a time when the COVID response was, was wearing off.

People were getting a bit over, uh, lockdowns and constraints.

But if the model has been so successful, why is that not the direction the world is heading in?

Helen?

Well, perhaps just following on this theme, because I agree with this, but, uh, when the government changed at the end of 2008, it was in the global financial crisis.

There was never a better time to be buying shares.

[laughs] And instead of that, the government that followed mine, which had set up what was often called the Cullen Fund, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, to sort of fund that bulge in the number of older Kiwis that was clearly [laughs] coming down the track.

Uh, instead of that, they...

The incoming government did not invest and build up a war chest.

Yeah

... you know, the, the... a, a party which appears to have a close relationship with the companies holding an associate health portfolio is, is, is quite distressing.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, which, which didn't surprise me.

You know, my dad had no question about voting for that as a, a very, very old person because the longer [laughs] you live, the longer you see people in a situation who may wish to make that choice, choice about how you die.

It's notoriously difficult to carry a referendum, and I just so don't see there's a bow wave that would carry that at the moment if, if it ever came to pass And of course, all the arguments will come out about, you know, going back to a two-party dictatorship and majority vote and so on.

So I think to change core elements of the constitution, like the electoral system, you need a proper process.

In New Zealand's case, we'd had a royal commission.

We had a, a referendum firstly on do you want change, and if you do, please rank these four options.

They are seeking to make life so unbearable for people that they'll be forced to leave, but where would they go?

That's the variant of the Ebola outbreak, uh, that's raging right now in the, in the DRC, which is, um, unlike the other variants that we had seen more recently at least.

This is not the most common variant.

It's only the third time that it's happened in Democratic Republic of, of Congo, and of course, there have been many more outbreaks of the other strain of Ebola, which I understand is generally the Zaire strain.

Uh, but this one was not unknown.

Notwithstanding that it was not unknown, we had no what you might describe as field test, a readily deployable field test which could, uh, detect, uh, that this was happening.

Uh, and so the initial tests that were being done were returning negative because the test wasn't able to detect this variant.

But given that this had occurred before, and we know how in a fragile and conflict-affected setting, uh, a deadly disease can get away, it's interesting that no effort had gone into a test which could identify this.

This is like a key node that's yet to be, um, agreed.

And they are now taking the role in negotiating, particularly over places like the Strait.

I think the Gulf states were over this some time ago because it's been a real blow to their economies.

They've suffered infrastructure damage from shelling, from bombing.

And of course, they haven't been able to move the oil and gas for the most part.

There's other allies who will be speaking very loudly, too.

I noticed last night's news saying that Gatwick Airport was very low on jet fuel and the vulnerability of the UK airports to jet fuel constraint has been known for a little while.

So everyone wants it.

Do you take a risk, take a punt, roll them, get someone else in and hope that you can boost that party vote so you have a stronger national in the next coalition? Or do you stick with what you've got and not risk losing government, but risk losing share of Cabinet to your minor parties?

I actually start our interview by asking her what she thinks the single biggest challenge facing New Zealand is at the moment

Generically, the biggest challenge is to have people do long-term thinking because there are big challenges, and none of them are susceptible to one swing of the wheel.

So if you look at the infrastructure challenge, it's been mounting for quite a long time.

A lot of it is that we fail to invest in what we have, and most of the infrastructure we need is already in place, but it is badly under-invested in, so things don't go so well.

But this requires a long-term approach that transcends governments.

And I think back to my time, there was not a single New Zealand infrastructure project that I inherited from governments before that was dropped.

When we left office, there was not a single project which the Key English government dropped.

Mm.

What do you think of all of this?

Very concerning on a number of levels.

Uh, obviously on the level of an MP who came to New Zealand as a child, who's been here for 32 years, and out of nowhere in a parliamentary session is called by a foreign minister on to go back home, go to your own country.

Uh, um, I mean this is quite extraordinary and I think sends a chill right around our migrant communities as to whether people are ever actually going to feel part of and be welcomed in New Zealand.

But then to, to add to that, you have the line around go back to your own country where they lie like flatfish.

Now that country of course is a very great power.

It's our largest trading partner.

Winston Peters often describes himself as a New Zealand First leader, distinct from foreign minister, but he's being reported as a foreign minister up in China, and I quote, "The official protest on Thursday accompanied by a rare social media statement from Beijing's ambassador in Wellington escalated a fiery domestic exchange over race and governance into a broader diplomatic issue." How does the prime minister get on top of this broader diplomatic issue?

What do you think of all of this?

Very concerning on a number of levels.

Uh, obviously on the level of an MP who came to New Zealand as a child, has been here for thirty-two years, and out of nowhere in a parliamentary session is called by a foreign minister on to go back home, go to your own country.

Uh, um, I mean, this is quite extraordinary, and I think sends a chill right around our migrant communities as to whether people are ever actually going to feel part of and be welcomed in New Zealand.

But then to, to add to that, you have the line around, "Go back to your own country, where they lie like flatfish." Now that country, of course, is a very great power.

It's our largest trading partner.

That is no way to speak, uh, about it.

Winston Peters often describes himself as a New Zealand First leader, distinct from foreign minister, but he's being reported as a foreign minister up in China, and I quote, "The official protest on Thursday, accompanied by a rare social media statement from Beijing's ambassador in Wellington, escalated a fiery domestic exchange over race and governance into a broader diplomatic issue." How does the Prime Minister get on top of this broader diplomatic issue?

Because they wouldn't go, you mean they wouldn't go all the way to rejecting him?

I think that would have been several steps too far.

But abstaining is also several steps too far.

Because firstly, it's very unusual to oppose a Secretary General's recommendation for the reappointment of a high official.

Believe me, I've been a high official who has been subject to such a resolution.

But secondly, Volker Turk does not deserve this verdict from New Zealand.

Of course, any UN Human Rights Commissioner who's endeavouring to do their best in the job will annoy some countries.

Helen, what did you make of this Rubio intervention, which was really about breaking it down and then this theoretical pressure on allies if they don't join this anti-ICC parade?

Do you see that as part of the puzzle when we're looking at how to get New Zealand and the New Zealand government to start thinking a little more long term in the way that your book is calling for?

It's part of the puzzle, but I'm of the school of thought that says there's no point extending the term unless you're prepared to consider a range of other reforms which would more effectively put boundaries around the power of governments.

by its apostles at the time in the mid-90s, supposed to usher in an era of more consensus building and discussion across party lines.

But what we've settled into is a different form of majoritarian government where one side takes all, as it were.

and that's leading to a lot of rushed decision making now and really no attempt to build the longer term consensus around areas of policy which do need that that foresight for example if i think back to my time i i can't think of a single kiwi infrastructure project that my government dumped from the Bolger Shipley government, which preceded it.

And the same with John Key's government, which took over from mine.

But now we seem to be in an era where you just trash things others have done almost for the sake of it.

Can you tell us what you saw and what you make of it?

What did you see on this recent visit that led you to that conclusion?

When one looks at a map now of the occupied West Bank, you can see the settlements dotted all over it.

I was able to visit there and go into one of the big valleys where there have been Arab villages with their olive groves and their animals.

And you're now seeing the villages increasingly surrounded by settlements and outposts.

There's around 500 of these altogether on the West Bank.

We visited a village where the story told was pretty much what I've been reading in the international media for some time now.

That is of arbitrary checkpoints put up, of violent settlers intruding, of the Israeli army ruling your olive grove off limits, military zone, you can't harvest.

Is that enough if things are not changing? What more action do you think governments could and should take?

But his links with New Zealand remained very strong, didn't they?

Very strong links.

He remained associated with our politics and our big causes.

One of my greatest memories of Sam will be when he appeared to speak at my campaign launch in the Auckland Town Hall in two thousand and five.

He was, uh, very moved to come out and support us.

It was a, a difficult election, and, uh, he made a fine speech saying he wanted New Zealand to continue to be an inclusive place which didn't marginalize people and was a voice for peace in the world, or words to that effect.

So he wasn't afraid to get out there and put a stake in the ground for what he believed in.

Um, he was known v- as a relatively modest man in, in a lot of ways, wasn't he?

Miss Clark has been sharing her memories with News Hour and asked her how she thinks New Zealand will remember Sam.

Sam.Simply the best known New Zealand actor of all time.

Most noticed by the international community in Jurassic Park, but for me as a New Zealander, it was the starring roles that he had in some of our iconic movies.

Going back to 1977, he starred in Sleeping Dogs, which was a story about New Zealand under an authoritarian leader, probably, uh, an, an allegory on the [laughs] government of the time.

He goes, first of all, to Australia, then begins to make a breakthrough in Hollywood, but his links with New Zealand remained very strong, didn't they?

Very strong links.

He remained associated with our politics and our big causes.

One of my greatest [laughs] memories of Sam will be when he appeared to speak at my campaign launch in the Auckland Town Hall in 2005.

Has MMP made this problem more difficult to overcome?

In theory, it should make it easier to overcome because those who promoted it going back 30 years said it would mean more dialogue, more cross-party consensus and so on.

In practice...

That has mainly been done within the political blocks, so centre-left, centre-right.

Of course, with some exceptions, and trade policy by and large is an honourable exception.

In my time, one of the first issues which presented itself as problematic for the government was the Singapore Free Trade Agreement.

And Jim Anderton and the Alliance had a policy, as they're entitled to have, that said, we're not going to support this.

As the fiscal and demographic pressures intensify, has your position changed at

Has MMP made this problem more difficult to overcome?

In theory, it should make it easier to overcome because those who promoted it going back 30 years said it would mean more dialogue, more cross-party consensus and so on.

In practice...

That has mainly been done within the political blocks, so centre-left, centre-right.

Of course, with some exceptions, and trade policy by and large is an honourable exception.

In my time, one of the first issues which presented itself as problematic for the government was the Singapore Free Trade Agreement.

And Jim Anderton and the Alliance had a policy, as they're entitled to have, that said, ''We're not going to support this.'' So what do we do? We walked over the aisle.

As the fiscal and demographic pressures intensify, has your position changed at all?

Now, are you seeing this as a coalition in crisis or is this just Winston flexing and playing games?

It is a bit of a crisis because it's clearly shown that there was a major division of opinion between the Prime Minister and Winston Peters on what position to take on the bombing of Iran.

But beneath that, there's also the issue, I think, of of coalition coordination.

How come things can get to this point where something's released, one side doesn't know? What is going on here? What we can see in the polling is that New Zealand First is eating fairly deeply international support.

And that is starting, I think, to become somewhat more corrosive in the coalition.

was it that we found out basically that Winston overruled him and that his position was that he wanted to support the strikes?

Yes.

When we think back to the Prime Minister's initial reaction to the strikes, he didn't seem happy, did he? He didn't seem able to articulate what the position actually was.

Now, are you seeing this as a coalition in crisis or is this just Winston flexing and playing games?

It is a bit of a crisis because it's clearly shown that there was a major division of opinion between the Prime Minister and Winston Peters on what position to take on the bombing of Iran.

But beneath that, there's also the issue, I think, of of coalition coordination.

How come things can get to this point where something's released, one side doesn't know? What is going on here? What we can see in the polling is that New Zealand First is eating fairly deeply into national support.

And that is starting, I think, to become somewhat more corrosive in the coalition.

Do you think that he is truly grumpy or just flexing? Tell me what you think.

Well, I think he's flexing because he's actually taking votes at their expense.

And this is provoking quite an extraordinary reaction, particularly from Nicola Willis, who isn't holding back in her attacks on New Zealand First.

know,

come back to normal supply chains reasonably quickly.

But he missed that opportunity.

And now he's in donkey deep, as they say.

And the search goes on from missing airmen.

There's rumors that there's vast amounts, more troops are heading to the Gulf.

In the meantime, you've got those more than 2000 ships sitting in the Gulf, about 310 of them oil and gas tankers, how many with fertilizer, which is essential for world agriculture.

Helen? What did you think?