As you were saying then, why are sleep difficulties so common in people with ADHD and what's happening differently in our brains when it comes to sleep?

Well, if you imagine every cell in the body has a clock and neurodiverse or not, it's We all have these clocks.

Every living thing has these clocks.

And the clocks are really clever.

They anticipate and respond to life.

So they basically are working so that not everything in the body is turned on all at once because, of course, that doesn't work.

So I'm really interested in the fact that there's a lot of talk out there about people being dysregulated.

So can we just talk a little bit about more about how what happens from the moment we wake up impacts then our ability to sleep at night?

And I'm interested to know what led you to the world of sleep, and then when did you realize, "My goodness, most of my clients are probably neurodivergent"?

I've always been interested in how the body works.

I had a, a real fascination for that.

I mean, I was told as a, as a child that I was a poor sleeper, and there's a whole backstory to, to that and how I felt about my sleep.

But then my first career, I worked in advertising.

I was an art director, and during that period, I...

it was the first time, I was about 29, I think, and I started having panic attacks.

When did you start connecting those dots?

C-could you take us through a bit of what, what your clinical approach would be like if someone's coming to see you in clinic?

Well, typically, um, 'cause I get, I get a lot of my-- a lot of my clients do come through referral from other health professionals, and they tend to be people who have gone through-- they might have gone through CBT-I multiple times in-- it's cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.

The people I see tend to have tried all sorts.

So by the time they, they, they know a lot about what works for them, what doesn't work for them.

So the, the starting point is often understanding, so, okay, what have you tried? There's often a very strong theme, and I, I-- as I, as I'm speaking, I'm thinking there's a very strong theme, a belief of you can't fix this.

And well, it's, it's-- I'm not here to fix, but I'm here to try and sort of see, well, what, what are we doing? What, what else could we do? And why, why, why do you think that it won't work? SoThe initial piece f- is often unpicking a lot of what's been going on in a very, very fixed mindset of this can't work.

And yeah, it is definitely the case.

I mean, what, what do you think about the importance of our senses and sleep or our ability to relax?