What are your thoughts around that?

Well, at one point when you are a salesperson at Wells Fargo, when you look around and you struggle to achieve your quota, And your boss comes to you four times a day, yells at you in an open space office and humiliates you for not achieving your targets.

And then you see all your colleagues easily achieving their targets, being promoted, getting their bonus, and you know they cheat.

Then you start wondering, well, maybe that is the rule that counts here and I should just do what the others do to survive, right? It's not that these people became rich.

A lot of Wells Fargo or in general bank salespeople in the US, they depend on food stamps from the government because they don't make enough money to survive.

So it's not that these are bankers greedily enriching themselves.

It's...

So how can boards and leaders build more psychologically safe cultures where they know the truth is protected and people feel they are able to speak out without retaliation?

What should we be on the lookout for?

When you, when you study business in a business school, you get taught a certain way of thinking about the world.

How is the world? And, and this includes things like you must maximize profit for shareholders, and that's your only social responsibility, Milton Friedman.

Markets regulate themselves, so governments are really bad.

You don't need regulation.

It's inefficient.

Humans are egoistic.

So tell us about destructive incentives.